CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview with Joe Manchin

Interview

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION.

Democrats in Congress are making a big push this month to send two major priorities to President Biden's desk, the bipartisan infrastructure deal and a massive $3.5 trillion budget filled with progressive priorities.

All that hit a roadblock after my next guest called for a -- quote -- "strategic pause" on that bill, saying the price was too high. And with the 50/50 Senate, Democrats can't even lose one vote.

And West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin joins me now.

Senator, thank you so much for coming in.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): Great to be with you.

BASH: I appreciate it.

So, let's talk about the op-ed that you wrote. You said you cannot support the $3.5 trillion bill until you get -- quote -- "greater clarity" on why that amount is necessary. Most of your colleagues have been trying to give you that clarity over the past couple of weeks since you wrote that.

Your party leader, Chuck Schumer, says he's moving -- quote -- "full speed ahead" with this package.

Will he have your vote?

MANCHIN: And that's fine. He can.

He will not have my vote on 3.5. And Chuck knows that. And we have talked about this. We have already put out $5.4 trillion. And we have tried to help Americans in every way we possibly can. And a lot of the help that we put out there is still there, and it's going to run clear until next year, 2022.

What's the urgency? What's the urgency that we have? It's not the same urgency that we have with the American Rescue Plan. We got that out the door quick. Yes, it was about $2 billion -- $2 trillion, and on top of that, all the things we have got with the CARES package, everything leading up to that.

So, we have done an awful lot. And there's still an awful lot of people that need help. But you have 11 million jobs that aren't filled right now. Eight million people are still unemployed. Something's not matching up.

Don't you think we ought to hit the pause and find out? The vulnerability that we have, Dana, right now, we don't know what is happening with this COVID. It's awful, coming back the way it is with a vengeance. And we don't know about inflation. We know it's running rampant right now.

I can tell you, in West Virginia, inflation's running rampant, and, on top of that, the challenges we're going to have, geopolitical challenges. Shouldn't we be prepared?

BASH: So, I want to ask you about a lot of that. But are you saying it's the price tag, it's the timeline? Both?

MANCHIN: It's the urgency. Do we have the urgency to do what they're wanting to do in such a quick period of time?

BASH: But can you be specific?

OK, let's just -- let's talk about the dollar sign.

MANCHIN: Yes.

BASH: Do you have a specific number in mind?

MANCHIN: Here's a number you should be getting to.

First of all, I have agreed to get onto the reconciliation, because that's the time for us to make financial adjustments and changes. I thought the 2017 tax code and tax law, the way it was changed, was barely -- very, very unfair. And it was weighted to the heavy -- to the wealthy.

BASH: So what's the number?

MANCHIN: And bottom line is, what's -- the number would be what's going to be competitive in our tax code.

I believe the corporate rate should be at 25, not 21.

BASH: But what's the overall number for the budget bill?

MANCHIN: You know, I think that you're going to have to look at it and find out what you're able to do through a reasonable, responsible way.

BASH: So, then how do you know that it's not 3.5?

MANCHIN: And if that's going to be at 1.5, if it's going to be 1, 1.5 -- we don't know where it's going to be.

BASH: So, you think, ballpark, 1, 1.5?

MANCHIN: It's not going to be at 3.5, I can assure you.

But, with that, whatever it is, once you have a competitive tax code that you can compete globally, and then you should look at what the need is. What's the urgency and the need that we have?

BASH: And I'm -- again, I want to get to that, but just because this is -- this is the thing that people consume.

Do you have a ceiling?

(CROSSTALK)

MANCHIN: I -- my ceiling is this, the need of the American people, and for us to basically take in consideration inflation.

No one's concerning about the debt. Our debt as of Friday was 28.7 trillion? And we're not even talking about that. No one is talking about that.

BASH: So, 1 -- you just said 1.5. It sounds like $1.5 trillion is your number?

MANCHIN: I'm just saying that, basically -- well, I have looked at numbers. If we have a competitive tax code from a noncompetitive, doesn't help the working person that was done in 2017, that's in the 1, 1.5 range, OK?

If that's where it is, shouldn't you be looking at, what does it take now to meet the urgent needs that we have that we haven't already met?

BASH: OK. So let's talk about how this would be paid for.

The White House chief of staff, Ron Klain, told me on this show last week that you are -- quote -- "very persuadable" on this budget bill because he says it will be paid for, it won't add to the debt, it won't add to inflation.

Your response?

MANCHIN: Well, if you're paying for it with inflated numbers from the standpoint, it's the tax code.

The numbers that they're wanting to pay for and the tax changes they want to make, is that competitive? Does it keep us competitive or not? I believe there's some changes made that does not keep us competitive.

BASH: Meaning don't increase the...

MANCHIN: Well...

BASH: Don't increase taxes on corporations?

MANCHIN: I'm just -- no, no, I want to increase taxes on corporations.

I have spoken to corporations.

BASH: So, what specifically are you saying?

MANCHIN: I want the wealthy -- I want the wealthy to pay their fair share.

[09:20:00] But if you're up higher to the point to where you are that we can be competitive globally, then it's going to be counterproductive. Everyone's looking at this whole complete different way than I think maybe I am or other people, or other people are just keeping quiet.

The bottom line is, do we have the urgency to spend another $3.5 trillion right now? The most urgent thing that we have to do is get the bipartisan infrastructure bill that's gone left unattended for over 30 years, deferred maintenance throughout every part of our nation.

That's the one. The president went out and campaigned on that. That's his bill. We worked it in a bipartisan way, got 19 Republicans to vote for it. That's the bill that should go out immediately.

BASH: OK, and that's -- you have another side of this negotiation and some of your fellow Democrats, which I want to get to in a second, but let's just stay on, what they call here in Washington to pay-fors, how the -- your fellow Democrats want to pay for this.

They're looking at increasing the corporate tax rate, closing existing loopholes, raising taxes on wealthy Americans, trying to get money back from...

MANCHIN: I agree with...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Get the IRS to get money back.

MANCHIN: IRS. I agree with all of that. I agree with all of it.

BASH: And they say they can add that up to 3.5, and there will be not a dollar...

MANCHIN: No, let's...

BASH: This is what they're saying -- added to the debt.

MANCHIN: I understand, but we just disagree.

BASH: You just don't believe them?

No, I don't believe them. I'm just saying that those rates are not going to be competitive to find out the money.

Here's the difference. They're looking for $3.5 trillion. I'm looking for a competitive tax rate, OK? I want to make the adjustments and changes. They're looking for basically...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: What does competitive tax rate mean? Can you define that?

MANCHIN: Yes, be globally competitive. Dana, you have to be globally competitive. You back can't be... (CROSSTALK)

BASH: Right. But can you give a -- can you explain...

MANCHIN: First of all, you can't be at 39 percent as far as cap gains, capital gains. I said 28 all in, OK? You can't be at 28 or 30 or more with corporate net. I said 25 all in.

And I think that every corporation should pay a minimum of 15 percent. They should all pay something. I believe in that. But the bottom line is, the need that we have -- you understand that they have put no restrictions whatsoever or qualifications on any of this as means testing...

BASH: Yes.

MANCHIN: ... of the need of the people, the means testing?

How many people have you had talked to you that said, they're sending me checks, I don't know why? We have all heard that.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: OK, I want to -- and I want to get to some of the specifics in a second.

But you just said that you want to get the infrastructure bill that you helped to negotiate, a bipartisan infrastructure bill. It passed the Senate. You want to get it through the House.

MANCHIN: And the White House was very much involved every day.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: And the White House was -- but, as you well know, dozens of House progressives are saying, no, they're not going to vote for your infrastructure deal until you support what we're talking about here, the overall budget bill, which has a lot of the president's agenda, a lot of Democrats' agenda in it.

By digging in your heels on this, aren't you dooming your own infrastructure bill?

MANCHIN: Who's digging in the heels here?

From the -- first off, the infrastructure bill has been passed, OK? You have a bipartisan bill with 19 Republicans. Who thought that could happen? Who thought that -- and we worked hard on that for many, many months. And the president's team was very much involved. And the president went out and sold this around the country.

Why would you basically let the perfect be the enemy of the good? You have a bill right now. I'm not saying we aren't going to the reconciliation bill whenever. I'm just saying the urgency now...

BASH: But they have leverage. I guess they're -- they have leverage...

MANCHIN: If they can home and tell...

BASH: ... just like -- just like you have leverage. They're using their leverage, the House progressives, just like you are.

MANCHIN: That's fine.

And if they can go home and tell people that, hey, I don't care about the roads and bridges, you don't need it, I don't care about Internet service, you don't need that, I don't care about fixing water and sewer lines, I don't care about the hard infrastructure that's left go, deferred for last 30 years, I don't care about any of that.

I can't go home and say that in West Virginia. We need all of that. We have the worst bridges in the country.

BASH: You take this threat seriously by the progressives?

MANCHIN: They will have to do what they have to do. I mean, I don't -- I'm not involved with the House and the House rules or any of that, OK? They're going to do what they think is best.

And if they play politics with the needs of America, I can tell you, America will recoil.

BASH: And they say you're playing politics.

MANCHIN: I don't think so.

But the bottom line is, if it's such good politics, and they think $3.5 trillion, why are they rushing it now? Why don't they use that for a political...

BASH: All right, let's talk about what's in it.

(CROSSTALK)

MANCHIN: ... on the campaign trail and say, elect for me, and we will spend $3.5 trillion?

BASH: Let's talk about some of the specifics, because I want to get to the substance of what we're talking about here.

MANCHIN: Sure.

BASH: Because I don't think that gets enough attention.

What President Biden and the Democrats say is, the child tax credit, which has been expanded, make it permanent. They're saying it's already having a major impact on poverty and hunger for children.

Do you support making it permanent?

MANCHIN: Well, I support child tax credits. I sure am trying to help the children. BASH: But the expansion that is...

MANCHIN: But let's before this. And before you start saying, is it going to be permanent, this and that, let's see how we're doing.

BASH: Yes.

MANCHIN: Let's make sure that we're getting it to the right people.

Let's make sure -- and the people on poverty. I can tell you, people that are working and working poor making every effort they can to get ahead in life, that's in the $50,000 and below. I have got people that are making combined 200 and 300 and more, up to 400, saying they're getting checks.

If we have X-amount of dollars...

BASH: But it's on a sliding scale. They shouldn't be doing that.

MANCHIN: Well, it's happening, though. This is happening because of the sliding scale.

It's 75 and 150 with a sliding fee up to 400, OK? These are things that there's -- hard caps to be put. The need base -- we're not having anything about need base. We're not doing any type of that.

[09:25:08]

And, first of all, child tax credits, think about this. If a child tax credit, you want to help the children and the parents that are basically providing for those children. There's no work requirements whatsoever. There's no education requirements whatsoever for better skill sets.

Don't you think, if we're going to help the children, that the people should make some effort?

BASH: So, let's talk about universal pre-K. West Virginia, your home state...

MANCHIN: I have been all for that. I'm all in.

BASH: You want to make it a federal program?

MANCHIN: Well, that's fine, to be federal, but the states can do it too. And the states have a responsibility.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: But should universal pre-K be in a bill like this that you would support?

MANCHIN: I don't have a problem because I universal pre-K.

BASH: OK. OK.

What about increasing funding for home care services, for the sick and elderly?

MANCHIN: We have $60 billion hasn't gone out the door yet, $60 billion.

The only thing I'm saying is, why the urgency to spend another $300 billion towards that when you got $60 billion that hasn't gone out? Don't you think we ought to find out what happened? Why are not able to get into that type of a change, where we're able to make sure that the administration is able to disburse the money that need -- to get it to where it needs to be helped?

BASH: Clean energy provisions that are in this bill, they would use tax incentives and carbon capture technology to try to cut emissions in half...

MANCHIN: Sure.

BASH: ... and make the electric grid 80 percent clean energy by 2030.

Do you support that?

MANCHIN: Let me tell you this.

Let's look at what we have done for the last 20 years. In 20 -- in 2000, the year 2000, 52 percent of our electricity came from coal. Only about 16 percent came from natural gas, and only about 9.5 percent came from renewables, 20 years to date, OK?

2020, 19 percent from coal, 40 percent from natural gas, and up to 20 percent for renewables. The transition is happening. Now they're wanting to pay companies to do what they're already doing. Makes no sense to me at all for us to take billions of dollars and pay utilities for what they're going to do as the market transitions.

We have proven that. And we will continue to transition. They're accelerating something that could be very, very vulnerable to the reliability...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: So, it sounds like a no. You don't support the provisions.

MANCHIN: It makes no sense at all.

BASH: OK.

MANCHIN: Makes no sense.

BASH: OK.

I'm sure you have heard your fellow Democrat Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez said this about you in a tweet: "Manchin has weekly huddles with Exxon and is one of many senators who gives lobbyists their pen to write so-called bipartisan fossil fuels bills. It's killing people. Sick of this bipartisan corruption that masquerades as clear-eyed moderation." This is your fellow Democrat.

MANCHIN: Well...

BASH: Is it true that you have weekly meetings with Exxon and other lobbyists for fossil fuels?

MANCHIN: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And you ask them if they have ever -- no, they don't -- weekly meetings, I don't...

BASH: It's just false?

MANCHIN: I keep my door open for everybody. It's totally false.

And those types of superlatives, it's just awful. Continue to divide, divide, divide. I don't know that young lady that well. I really don't. I have met her one time, I think, between sets here. But that's it. So we have not had any conversations. She just speculating and saying things because she wants to...

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: She's not the only one. I'm sure you have heard. There are a number of your fellow Democrats who say that you're opposed to this because you're bought and paid for by corporate donors.

MANCHIN: I'm opposed to it -- I'm opposed to it because it makes no sense at all. I just gave you the facts.

I have said this. You're entitled to your own facts -- I mean, your own opinions. You're just not entitled to create your own facts to support it.

And that's exactly what they're doing. The facts that I have given you, the transition is happening, reliability. Look what happened in Texas. It was natural gas that basically shut down in Texas that caused all that horrible carnage of people. It was awful.

BASH: You have said pause. What the Senate wants to do is get this worked out by this week, so that the House can vote on it September 27.

Is that a timeline that you can support in any way?

MANCHIN: There's no way we can get this done by the 27th, if we do our job. There's so much differences that we have here and so much -- there's so much apart from us where we are as far as our -- I'm giving you different things.

I have been talking. I'm working with people. I'm willing to talk to people. It makes no sense at all.

BASH: Real quick on another topic.

MANCHIN: OK.

BASH: Because I have been traveling, working on a project on voting.

I have been to Georgia and Texas and Arizona. Every Democrat I talk to there say that they need the federal government to act, you to help find a way to get a federal voting rights bill passed.

I know you have been working on it this summer.

MANCHIN: I'm doing everything I can.

BASH: Where are you?

MANCHIN: Well, we have got -- Lisa Murkowski has been working with me. We have been talking to them quite a few different Republicans who are very interested in doing something that makes sense.

Voting and basically the security of voting is the bedrock of our democracy. And if you're -- not have access to the voting pool, vote, if it's not secured, and if the count is not accurate, then people have no confidence.

And, right now, the last two presidential elections, when it was over for Senate -- for President Trump or President Biden, there's over 40 billion people didn't vote -- 40 million that didn't believe it was accurate. That's wrong.

And if you're going to do something in a partisan way, they said, oh, just double down, get rid of the filibuster...

BASH: Yes.

MANCHIN: ... let's do it partisan, it'll divide our country further.

BASH: Do you think you will get this done before the next midterm -- before the midterms?

MANCHIN: Oh, I definitely believe we can, if we work hard.

[09:30:02]

Getting rid of things is the easy thing to do. Saying, I don't want the filibuster, that's easy. That's easy.

The hard work comes is when you try to sit down and work through this. Who would have thought we would have 19, 19 Republicans vote for a bipartisan infrastructure bill? Who would have thought that? Look at all the things that we have been able to do because we're working through it.

And there's about 22 of us, 11 D's and 11 R's. We continue to meet, continuously. We have built relationships. Ask some of the senators who are telling you or some of the congresspeople who are telling you how bad the other side, ask them the last time they sat down, had a cup of coffee, had a conversation, maybe had dinner, know what their spouse's name is, know how many children they have. Ask them.

Are they working hard enough? Or are they just basically hunkered down in their own position and defending it? And that's when you're set. You're entitled to your opinion. You just can't create your own facts or make your own statements that aren't accurate.

BASH: Senator Joe Manchin, thank you so much for your time this morning. I appreciate it.

MANCHIN: Thanks, Dana. Appreciate being with you.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

Source