CNN "Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees" - Transcript: Interview with Adam Kinzinger

Interview

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I'm joined now by Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger who serves on the Foreign Affairs Committee and is also a member of the House Select Committee investigating the January 6th riots.

Congressman Kinzinger, thank you for being with us.

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): Yes.

[20:05:08]

BERMAN: The fact that the former President Donald Trump was somehow offended by George W. Bush's condemnation of domestic terrorists. What does that tell you?

KINZINGER: So, it tells me two things. First off, he just -- I mean, he proved George W.'s point as quickly and as amazingly as you can. I mean, the fact that he's out there dividing on a day, and if we have to pick one day besides like Christmas to be unified, probably September 11th, is a good candidate for that.

But the other thing, and just as a quick aside to anybody that still is kind of looking at Donald Trump as a standard bearer for the Republican Party, this is one of the weakest men that I've ever seen.

I mean, if you think about it, you know, what is strength? Strength isn't somebody that just gets their dander up every time, you know because they feel they have such a lack of self-esteem, they feel like they have to go out and attack. Somebody with strength is somebody that can take criticism, that can go out on a day like September 11th, and bring people together, and you know, folks on my side like to use the term "snowflake" when talking about people that get offended really easy. Well, that's Donald Trump.

And so I mean, again, he just went out and proved George W. Bush's point, and there needs to be more people -- it was so great to hear the President Bush say this, because, you know, there's just been a lack of people out there saying what needs to be said.

BERMAN: You consider Donald Trump weak?

KINZINGER: Oh, certainly. I mean, I guess to the extent that, you know, strength is what people perceive you have, and people look at him in the party and he is obviously the frontrunner. And, of course, he was a former President, I guess, to the extent there, there may be some strength, but I look at who he is as a person, and the amount of offended he gets on anything, how he has to go out and punch down.

You know, I mean, he'll attack a radio host for goodness sakes, when he was President of the United States. That, to me, at least how I grew up, you know, as a kid born in Central Illinois, that, to me was always weakness. Like strength was kind of that steady, calm ability in a rough storm to maintain your steady focus, and certainly that is not the former President.

BERMAN: Have you heard any upset or disquiet in Republican leadership over how Donald Trump chose to spend September 11th?

KINZINGER: No, I mean, I'm not really in the favor of Republican leadership right now, and that in and of itself is telling, because I haven't changed an ounce since -- in the last 11 years. I've been pretty consistent on who I am.

But, you know, I mean, look, just a week ago, he put out an entire statement about Robert E. Lee, and how General Lee could have won in Afghanistan even though Robert E. Lee lost the Civil War. I mean, and I didn't hear anything, you know, condemning that.

So, I guess I've run out of kind of hope that leadership would try to distance themselves, and we've just gotten so tribal in this country. And it really is a point, I think, we all need to self-reflect, and I don't know if we will, I hope so.

But we are so tribal that crazy stuff like this can be sad. And it just, you know, goes over -- it goes over our heads in many cases.

BERMAN: When you say crazy stuff like this. Look, a source tells CNN that preparations, you know, obviously are going on right now at the Capitol for this event this Saturday and law enforcement worry that some of the protesters could be armed. It's called Justice for January 6. That is the name of this rally, Justice for January 6 -- and I guess these are the people the President defended today in a statement -- the former President Donald Trump defended in a statement today.

KINZINGER: Yes, I mean, and let's think about this. These are people that would identify as militia members. They would -- these are the ones that kind of lust after and fetishize this whole idea of overthrowing the Federal government, right, because now the Federal government might bring you a vaccine conveniently, we have to overthrow it.

You know, and that's what you're dealing with. So, I hope Saturday, I hope this rally, obviously isn't violent. That's my hope. I guess that's my expectation. But the fact that we're sitting here, and that this is now a common occurrence. This is where we have to take inventory of where we've come.

You know, for instance, supporting the Second Amendment as I do, doesn't mean you support that people should be able to walk with an AR-15 and occupy the Michigan State Capitol. I mean, there's a point at which we have to just kind of look around and go, is this really what we want our kids -- and how are we going to ever get out of this like such tribal divided moment we're in, you know, without people having to take tough decisions, and kind of get past their own personal animosity, because otherwise this is just going to grow to a really bad place.

BERMAN: You say, it is going to. Look, the Republican Party to an extent has chosen, at least as of today, what direction they want to go in the new CNN poll I mentioned earlier where you show a clear majority of Republicans that say that Trump is the leader. How do you reconcile that?

[20:10:07]

KINZINGER: You're right. You're right. And, you know, it's slightly better than it was five months ago. But if you look, I mean, there's a few of my colleagues that will occasionally speak out. You know, I have one, Liz Cheney that speaks out as much as I do.

But you know, if you're a Republican base voter, and, you know, you look at every leader that you know that you trust that's a Republican, and none of them say anything. In fact, there's this kind of quiet, you know, acquiescence to yes, the election was stolen, because I don't want to have to stand up and tell you it wasn't, I guess, maybe we should be impressed that a third of Republicans still don't.

But that's why leadership is so important. And, you know, for some reason, we've gone from when we were in high school, thinking that when you get elected, you actually lead people to now believe in that when you get elected, you just kind of have to watch public opinion and you become a dog chasing your tail into traffic.

BERMAN: I guess one of the things that I found striking in all of this is that the country has come to the point where a significant number of people are actually defending -- publicly defending what happened on January 6. I mean, that was the thrust of Trump's statement about George W. Bush. That's the thrust of this event that's going to be at the Capitol this Saturday. It is now a defense, pride almost in what took place.

KINZINGER: You're right, and this is why, you know, I have made the decision to be on the January 6 Committee, I think why I can say Liz Cheney has as well, is because we realize without this nonpartisan investigation of what happened, you're going to have this retelling of history to where it almost becomes a heroic event.

I mean, the number of people I talked to that tell me that there was no violence there or they tell me that this was still Antifa or the F.B.I. drove this. Or even if they admit that it was, you know, Trump supporters that that was okay because in this moment, when an election is stolen, that is our duty.

Well, that's -- look, if an election really was stolen and the government was shutting down elections, that's different, but that's not what happened. But the problem is, leaders won't stand up and tell people the truth because for whatever reason, this job that pays $174,000.00 a year, and you can put a title in front of your name is worth more than your integrity in some cases. I don't get it.

BERMAN: It's the parking space. Listen, Congressman, I want to shift gears here because Secretary of State Antony Blinken was part of this congressional hearing on the U.S. rollout from Afghanistan. This was something you were a part of today. How satisfied were you with what he had to say?

KINZINGER: I mean, completely unsatisfied. I think there are a couple points that stood out to me. I asked the Secretary specifically, you know, there's discussion about recognizing the Taliban now. And I said, tell me, at what point did the Taliban in essence become the governing group of Afghanistan? Or was this an armed coup? And he just said, well, you know, by default there, they're now in charge. Well, that's us acquiescing to a coup d'etat.

And we still don't have answers on how many Afghan SIVs have been pulled out of Afghanistan. And I have to tell you, John, the thing that concerns me a lot is what I hear on the ground in terms of who is not allowed to get out of Afghanistan, versus what we're being told by state are two totally different things.

One person --- one of the entities is not telling the full truth, and you know, history will show that. I give him credit for coming in front of the committee, and he's going to be in front of, I think, the Senate later this week or tomorrow. I am certainly not satisfied though.

BERMAN: Congressman Adam Kinzinger, I do appreciate your time tonight. Thank you very much.

KINZINGER: You bet.

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