CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview with Rob Portman

Interview

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SEN. ROB PORTMAN (R-OH): Well, we're still working on it. It's more important to get it right than to meet an arbitrary deadline.

And we are still negotiating. In fact, last night, I was negotiating some of the final details with the White House. And, later today, we will be having additional negotiations with the Republicans and Democrats who have come together to put this bill into a track that's very unusual for Washington.

People are used to legislative -- legislation being on the Republican side or the Democrat side. And this is a little confusing for people, because it's actually 11 Republicans and 11 Democrats putting this together.

Chuck Schumer, with all due respect, is not writing the bill, nor is Mitch McConnell, by the way. So that's why we shouldn't have an arbitrary deadline of Wednesday. We should bring the legislation forward when it's ready.

And it's incredibly important legislation. We have a situation now in our country where we do have crumbling infrastructure. It's hurting our efficiency, therefore our productivity and our competitiveness. China spends about three or four times more on infrastructure than we do as an example.

So, everybody knows that. Every president in modern history has said we have got to have a massive investment in our infrastructure, President Bush, President Obama. President Trump actually had a $1.5 trillion proposal in his budget, so significantly more than we're talking about.

So it's important that we get it done. It's been talked about for years. And yet it's got to be done in a thoughtful, bipartisan way. We don't want to rush this process and make mistakes.

BASH: I'm going to ask you about the substance of it in a minute.

But you say that Chuck Schumer, the majority leader, is trying to give an arbitrary deadline. I have covered lots of legislative battles in the Senate. And what he's saying is, let's just start debate. He's not saying, let's have a final vote on a bill.

So what's wrong with that?

PORTMAN: Start debate on what? We don't have a product yet. And we won't have a product until we can finish the negotiations properly.

Again, this is a complex bill. It involves several committees. It involves a lot of very tough issues, because we have got to resolve them between us first. So, again, we're meeting today. There are 11 Democrats and 11 Republicans working on this. And we're moving as fast as we can.

Dana, think about it. When we came together with the general framework agreement, it was decided that we would then get into the details. We have had one week of legislative session since then for a bill that, as you indicated earlier, is -- over a 10-year period over a trillion dollars, over a five-year period, which is what it's for, it's $579 billion.

It makes historic investments in our infrastructure. We want to get it right. So it's not too much to ask that we have the time to do that. Again, I was on with the White House last night negotiating some of the final details. So, we're still very much in that process.

We will push as hard as we can. We're working all weekend again. And that's important.

BASH: So...

PORTMAN: It's important to get it done, because it's an urgent matter. But we ought not to have an arbitrary deadline forcing this process.

BASH: So, let...

PORTMAN: We ought to be sure that we're doing it in a way that ends up with the best product.

BASH: So, let's talk about some of the sticking points that I know that you're working through.

One of the proposals is to improve IRS enforcement of existing laws, which is estimated to increase revenue by up to $100 billion without raising taxes. A number of your Republican colleagues, though, they are coming out against this approach. Senator Ted Cruz called it a foolish and dangerous idea.

So is IRS enforcement still part of your proposal or not?

PORTMAN: Well, one reason it's not part of the proposal is that we did have pushback. Another reason is that we found out that the Democrats were going to put a proposal into the reconciliation package which was not just similar to the one we had, but with a lot more IRS enforcement.

BASH: So...

PORTMAN: So, that created quite a problem, because the general agreement is that this is the bipartisan negotiated infrastructure package, and that we will stick with that.

And President Biden, to his credit, said that we will not be renegotiating these items in the reconciliation package. Remember, originally, the infrastructure package....

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Go ahead.

PORTMAN: Originally, the introduction package that President Biden put forward was twice as big as ours in terms of core infrastructure.

So they have different ideas on this. So we have a bipartisan process here. It's a compromise between both sides. Both sides make concessions. We want to stick with that.

And in terms of IRS reform, or IRS tax gap, which is what was in the original proposal, that will no longer be in our proposal. It will be in the larger reconciliation bill, we are told. And that's the two tracks here. We have the infrastructure bill separately from the $3.5 trillion reconciliation bill that is a strictly partisan exercise, more typical of Washington, frankly.

Ours is the one that's unusual. And I think that's one reason you see this difference between what Senator Schumer wants to do in terms of timing and what we must do on behalf of country.

BASH: So, if that's off the table -- if that's off the table...

[09:25:00]

PORTMAN: Yes.

BASH: ... how are you going to pay for the $1.2 trillion plan?

PORTMAN: Well, that's one reason we're having additional meetings today and had more meetings over the past few days on this topic.

And there are other ways to do this. There's legislation, one called the Medicare rebate rule, that provides significant revenue. I have been on the phone a lot with the Congressional Budget Office and with the Joint Committee on Taxation over the weekend. And we have a number of pay-fors.

And that's important, that it be paid for. It's also important to recognize this is about long-term investments in infrastructure, which is different than government spending for a new social program, as an example. This is spending that will be spent not next year, and it won't be spent, for the most part, until the next five to 10 years or more.

And it goes into long-term assets, which may last 50, 70 years. Think of a bridge or a port or an airport, waterways. The water infrastructure part of, this is very important, the broadband part of this.

So this is about long-term investments, more like capital expenditures in the private sector. Second, because it's good for the economy to make these kinds of expenditures, it will increase the economic growth of our country, therefore, increase revenue. So, by more efficiency in our economy, higher productivity, you will get taxes coming back into the economy because of this.

BASH: So...

PORTMAN: So, we take that into account as well, as we should.

BASH: Senator...

PORTMAN: I'm excited about it because it's about our long-term growth as an economy and our competitiveness.

BASH: Senator, I want to ask you about COVID. But, before I do, you just acknowledged that there is a large partisan

Democratic bill that is working in companion with yours. So, are you comfortable with that now?

PORTMAN: I'm not comfortable with their legislation at all, $3.5 trillion...

BASH: But linking the two?

PORTMAN: ... largest tax increase in American history.

They are -- they are not linked. And they cannot be linked. And to President Biden's credit, he has said that they are not linked. They're totally separate.

BASH: OK.

PORTMAN: Ours is a bipartisan process.

And it is, again, about infrastructure only, which is a different kind of spending than what the Democrats are talking about. Theirs is a $3.5 trillion reconciliation bill, meaning they only need 50 votes. Ours requires 60. And theirs is about substantially new spending on new social programs, and then huge tax increases.

BASH: So...

PORTMAN: And, no, I'm not for that. I think it's a terrible idea for our economy coming out of the pandemic. And I hope that they're not successful.

But ours is on an entirely different track. And everyone acknowledges that.

BASH: Senator, let me just ask you about COVID.

Nearly all new cases, hospitalization, deaths are among unvaccinated Americans. But polls show that nearly half of Republicans, your fellow Republicans, still don't intend to get the vaccine.

I want to play a clip of something that happened last weekend at CPAC's gathering.

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ALEX BERENSON, CONSERVATIVE AUTHOR: They were hoping, the government was hoping that they could sort of sucker 90 percent of the population into getting vaccinated.

And it isn't happening, right?

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

BERENSON: There's a -- younger people...

(END VIDEO CLIP) BASH: What you just heard there are people in the CPAC audience celebrating the U.S. falling short of its vaccination goals.

And they're doing that in part because of misinformation coming from the right. So, do your fellow Republicans need to stop questioning the vaccine and start pushing it instead?

PORTMAN: Well, the vaccines are a miracle. I mean, it's amazing.

And, by the way, it's President Trump's administration that started this effort with Operation Warp Speed. And it is something we should all celebrate. The vaccines are safe. The vaccines are effective.

As you know, Dana, I was in one of the trials. And I'm still in the trial, the Janssen J&J trial. So I got my vaccine early to show my constituents that I trusted the vaccines, that they were safe and effective.

And the numbers are overwhelming. If you have been vaccinated, you have a level of protection that is, again, extraordinary. It really is amazing how well it's working. And I -- plaudits to the Trump administration and to the scientists and researchers that worked overtime to prepare these vaccines.

This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated, by definition. Surgeon General Murthy just talked about that, that the vast majority, 99 percent or more, of those who unfortunately are dying out from this terrible pandemic are people who are not vaccinated.

So I do encourage people to get vaccinated. I don't think it ought to be something where we're going door to door and mandating it on people. I think what we should be doing is a much more effective and massive public media campaign talking about the facts...

BASH: Well...

PORTMAN: ... giving people the scientific facts on this.

And, if so, I think we will be able to get that number up. By the way, about 60 percent of the adults in my state and nationwide have been vaccinated. So, we're on track to...

BASH: Those are good numbers. And I...

PORTMAN: ... get to 70 percent, I hope.

BASH: We have to end it here.

But I think the public media campaign is a great idea. The problem is the right-wing media putting out disinformation. So, hopefully, you can talk to them about maybe stopping some of that as well.

[09:30:06]

Thank you so much, Senator Rob Portman. Appreciate your time this morning. PORTMAN: Thanks, Dana. Thanks for having me on.

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