ABC "This Week" - Transcript: Interview with Joe Manchin
Interview
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SEN. JOE MANCHIN, (D-WV): Hey, Jon.
KARL: -- the kind of thing we hadn't seen for a long time at the White House, Democrats and Republicans talking about a deal but obviously, there's been a lot of back and forth since then.
So give me the bottom-line. Is there a deal here that can get 60 votes in the Senate and that Joe Biden will sign?
MANCHIN: I sure believe there is, Jon. But before I say anything about that, I want to say that from all of us in West Virginia, our hearts go out to all of the -- all of the families in Surfside for this horrendous, horrendous tragedy. I want them to know that our prayers are with them, and we're thinking about each and every one of them. So God bless.
And let me just say this: on the deal? Absolutely. Jon, this is the largest infrastructure package in the history of the United States of America. And President Biden, there's no doubt in my mind, never has been a doubt in my mind that he is anxious for this bill to pass and for him to sign it. And I look forward to being there when he does. I can tell you there's so much good being done.
And I would hope that all my colleagues will look at it in the most positive light. They have a chance now to review it. It's got more in there for clean infrastructure, clean technology, clean energy technology than ever before, more money for bridges and roads since the interstate system was built, water, getting rid of our lead pipes. It's connecting in broadband all over the nation, and especially in rural America, in rural West Virginia.
So much good in this, Jon.
KARL: But help me understand where Democrats exactly are on this, because we heard President Biden announce a deal, then we heard him say that he would only sign it if the Congress also passed a much bigger infrastructure bill, the one that Bernie Sanders is working on, that he wants both in tandem, now he has walked that back.
But Nancy Pelosi has said that she's not even going to bring up your bipartisan bill unless this bigger Bernie Sanders's bill also gets passed by the Senate.
And listen to what -- how Elizabeth Warren described her understanding of what's going on here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: I can't vote for some small subset that, you know, the infrastructure train leaves the station and child care gets left on the platform, green energy gets left on the platform, billionaires don't have to pay, gets left on the platform. It's that all of the pieces have to move because ultimately, it's one deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: It's one deal, that's the way Elizabeth Warren sees it. It seems that's the way Nancy Pelosi sees it.
So what is going on here? Are you sure progressives are going to support your bipartisan bill if they don't get a guarantee on something bigger also passing?
MANCHIN: Well, Jon, I sure hope so. I hope they just look at the bill. We have two tracks. And that's exactly what I believe is going to happen.
And we've worked on the one track. We're going to work on the second track. There's an awful lot of need. And everything they talked about is something that we need.
Jon, I didn't vote for the 2017 tax cuts under President Trump. I thought they were weighted too much towards the high end, if you will. I think we need to make some adjustments. And I'm willing to step forward to make those adjustments. I've been very clear about that.
But we also, Jon, have to take into account where we are in this country, what our debt structure is. We're $28.5 trillion, we cannot continue to add on things that we can't pay for. I've always said this, we're writing checks our kids can't ever cash. And this is going to put a heck of a burden on the next generation. So we have to be cognizant of that.
But there's a lot of need out there, whether it be child tax credits, whether it be helping those kids have a start in life, whether it be fixing a lot of the human infrastructure that has fallen by the wayside, of helping middle class hard-working people have a chance to get ahead and enjoy the American dream. I'm all for that. To what degree, we'll see what we're able to pay for.
KARL: So you know what Bernie Sanders is working on, he's talking about a bill that's $6 trillion. I know that's a little rich for -- in terms of what you want. But what is your bottom line? How much more do you want? As you just said on top of this, the bill that you're negotiating with Republicans would be the biggest infrastructure bill in the history of the United States. How much more are you willing to add on top of that?
MANCHIN: Well, when you look at it, Jon, we paid for all this. This is not going to be added to debt. The infrastructure bill that we've done in the bipartisan way has pay-fors. We've used money that we've had. We've moved money that we haven't used yet to make sure that it was used in the most productive way. I think we've all done a good job. And that's what we have to look for when we do the next -- the next piece of legislation.
I understand the concerns. I understand the desires of everybody in my caucus and also on the Republican caucus. I know we can work together.
Look what we've done. Look what President Biden has accomplished in five months. I've never seen this type of accomplishment in modern history from a president coming in, the American Rescue Plan, $1.9 trillion. And then we do bipartisan bills on top of that. The Hate Crimes Bill that we did 94 to 1. We just did the competition with China bill in a very bipartisan way.
KARL: But --
MANCHIN: The Endless Frontier.
KARL: But what is --
MANCHIN: So many good things, Jon, we can do. We can work this out.
KARL: But what's your bottom-line? The question is, this is over $1 trillion --
MANCHIN: The bottom-line --
KARL: Bernie Sanders wants $6-more trillion.
MANCHIN: Here's --
KARL: What -- what do you -- how far are you willing to go?
MANCHIN: Well, let me just say this, Jon. Right now, I never thought that the net corporate tax should have been 21 percent. I always felt that 25 was very fair and balanced. So I'm willing to go to 25. I think that basically capital gains should be at 28 percent, not at 21.
There's changes that we can make that still keeps us competitive. I'm not going to be supportive in voting for things that does not meet -- make us competitive. We're in a global economy. I want to make sure that we're the leader of the free world, that we can still compete, that we can still manufacture and create great jobs and pay good salaries with benefits. That's what I want to make sure happens.
Now, let's see when we do all that and make the adjustments, how much money do we have. This is how you run your household. It's how I run my household or small businesses or large businesses. How much can we invest and how much return do we get on that investment?
I want to make sure we pay for it. I do not want to add more debt on. So if that's $1 trillion or $1.5 trillion or $2 trillion, whatever that comes out to be over a 10 year period, that's what I would be voting for.
KARL: Well, I think there's some real questions about whether or not this bill is truly -- is truly paid for. But let me ask you about the bigger question (ph) (INAUDIBLE). You get hammered --
MANCHIN: It should be, Jon.
KARL: You get hammered all the time --
MANCHIN: It should be --
KARL: -- by fellow Democrats, especially progressives who say you are constantly drawing redlines for what you'll support and creating limits on how far Democrats will be able to go now that you control all -- the House, the Senate and the White House.
What do you say to those that say, why don't you draw some redlines with Republicans? Why don't you say, unless they come around and agree to the stuff you just talked about, bring up the corporate tax rate again, some of the other issues, maybe voting rights, some of the other issues that Republicans are blocking -- why don't you draw a redline and say, look, if you guys don't move on this, I'm going to go and endorse doing away with the filibuster? I mean, that's your leverage --
MANCHIN: Well, Jon, first of all --
KARL: You are the man with the leverage.
MANCHIN: First of all, you -- well, and I don't wish this on anybody. Jon, I've not voted any differently than I voted for 10 years. I've always been very moderate, very centrist. I tell people, I'm fiscally responsible and socially compassionate. And I want to find that middle. And I think there's always a middle to find.
It's the way I live my life, it's the way I've basically been in public life, and I'm not changing. I'm sorry that this 50/50 worked out and people were unhappy with it, but it is what it is. And if they think that I'm going to change and be something that I'm not, I won't. And I've been very clear.
I'm willing to meet everybody halfway. If Republicans don't want to make adjustments to a tax code which I think is weighted and unfair, then I'm willing to go reconciliation. That's how you're able to do it.
But if they think in reconciliation I'm going to throw caution to the wind and go to $5 trillion or $6 trillion when we can only afford $1 trillion or $1.5 trillion or maybe $2 trillion and what we can pay for, then I can't be there. I'm very, very openly (ph) and I think we can find our priorities. We can help a lot of people and lift them up. But people have to get up and make an effort too. We all have to be fighting for the same greater country that we live in. And so (INAUDIBLE) were here. So I don't know what they're expecting, different than who I am and what I am. And they know me. I've been there for 10 years.
(CROSSTALK)
KARL: Well, I think it's safe to say that you are probably the only Democrat that could have been elected to the Senate from West Virginia. So thank you very much. We appreciate you taking time to talk to us, Senator Manchin.
MANCHIN: Well, I'm very appreciative to represent my great state of West Virginia, I can assure you of that. Thank you, Jon, I appreciate being with you.
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