CNN "State of the Union with Jake Tapper" - Transcript Interview with Ron Johnson

Interview

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

Mr. Chairman, thank you so much. First, I want to talk about what happened in Portland. We saw someone

get killed overnight, amid clashes there. And the president has been tweeting and retweeting before dawn this morning.

He called for the mayor of Portland to resign and be arrested. He painted protesters as thugs and cities in chaos.

You are the chairman, as I mentioned, of the Senate Homeland Security Committee. Are you comfortable with the president appearing to inflame tensions, instead of what we normally see from presidents, which is trying to calm them down?

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): Well, good morning, Dana.

Listen, I have been urging calm across the board, particularly in light of what happened here in Kenosha. But, as I said in the opening statement, when we had acting Secretary Wolf before my committee, when you encourage disdain for the police, you encourage criminals.

When you do little or nothing to stop rioting, you encourage anarchy. So, when you're encouraging criminals and anarchy, people's lives are lost. You have more and more destruction, more and more violence.

So, what we need to do is, we need to get control of the situation. And until we -- until we do, we're going to have more violence, we're going to have, unfortunately, potentially more loss of life.

BASH: Well...

JOHNSON: So, we need to get control of the situation. We need to encourage calm.

And here's something else we need to do. We need to figure out what we do all agree on. And we share the same goal.

BASH: So...

JOHNSON: We all want a safe, prosperous and secure America in states and communities. Let's concentrate on those areas of agreement, because that's how we achieve the unity everybody says they want.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: So, you're saying that everybody should be calm, which sounds -- sounds logical.

But look at what we are seeing this morning, just one of the things that we're seeing on the president's Twitter feed this morning. He really appears to be agitating and actively encouraging his supporters to go into Portland, which is resulting in some of this violence.

Is that what you want to be seeing from the president, sir?

JOHNSON: But, Dana, there are people -- there are people agitating all over the place. And what we need to do is get control of the situation. BASH: Yes, but he's the president of the United States.

JOHNSON: Kenosha -- Kenosha can be a model.

What happened in Kenosha is, Congressman Steil got into the city really quick, found out that law enforcement were looking for help. He called up the president. The president responded immediately and said, what can I do to help?

And he offered to bring in some out-of-state National Guardsmen.

BASH: So, given everything that you are saying...

JOHNSON: And, unfortunately -- unfortunately, our governor turned it down one night. Two people died in the intervening time. Then he accepted it.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: OK. So, given what you're saying, would you prefer that the president not tweet...

JOHNSON: But we have -- no, but we have surged...

BASH: ... agitating comments and agitating ideas on his Twitter feed?

JOHNSON: Well, that's how you -- that's how you are typifying it. What we need to do is, we need to encourage an end to the violence and the rioting.

BASH: There is no other way to see it. It is very different from what you said at the beginning of the program.

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNSON: The way you -- Dana, let me finish.

The way you stop the violence, the way you stop the rioting is, you surge manpower and resources, citizen soldiers, National Guard, and you overwhelm the numbers of rioters, so that they can't riot, so that you can protect people's First Amendment constitutional right to peacefully protest and that they don't turn to riots.

But I also have to point out, at some point in time, peaceful protests that don't even result in rioting, at some point in time, become a siege. I was in Kenosha yesterday.

BASH: Well...

[09:05:00]

JOHNSON: The downtown is boarded up. Those businesses are shuttered. They can't operate.

Other citizens now can't earn a living because their businesses are shut down. BASH: OK. Well, part of the problem -- part of the problem there is,

it has erupted...

JOHNSON: So, we also have to stop that siege on our cities.

BASH: OK. That's fair.

JOHNSON: Pardon?

BASH: That's fair.

On Wisconsin...

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNSON: It is very fair and needs to be said more often.

BASH: Let me ask you the question I was going to ask you, sir.

We saw two people killed by a Trump supporter in your home state of Wisconsin, in Kenosha last week. And these deaths do appear to be the result of clashes between the right and the left.

So, doesn't the president have a responsibility to call out violence, regardless of who is committing it?

JOHNSON: Yes, and the governor has responsibility to accept the surge in manpower, so that people...

BASH: I'm asking about the president.

JOHNSON: ... so that citizens -- so that citizens don't believe they got to protect their own property and take matters into their own hands.

BASH: I'm asking about the president. We can talk about the governor next. The president, yes or no?

JOHNSON: Because that's really what happened.

No, what the president did was, he offered to surge manpower resources, so the violence could end. The governor did not accept that that day. That night, tragically, two people lost their lives because citizens took matters into their own hands.

I'm not for vigilantism. I'm not sure that's what was happening. People felt, because the governor and local -- local officials were looking for help. The governor did not accept the help.

And so there was not the resolve to end the rioting. And so people took matters into their own hands. And that's what ended up happening. People die.

BASH: Which, do you -- do you...

JOHNSON: You have to get control of the situation. And the way you do it is what happened in Milwaukee -- in Kenosha, where local officials said, please, we want help, we want manpower. The president offered. The governor finally accepted it. And now at least the streets are not violent.

We still have the protests. The businesses are still shuttered. Those individuals' constitutional rights are being violated because they can't operate their business and enjoy a living.

BASH: Senator -- Senator, that 17-year-old...

JOHNSON: So, again, you have to look at the entire situation.

BASH: The 17-year-old accused of committing those two murders was a Trump supporter.

JOHNSON: It is a tragedy.

BASH: Do you -- do you condemn that?

JOHNSON: It is a tragedy.

BASH: Do you condemn it?

JOHNSON: It is a tragedy. It is -- it's a tragedy.

BASH: It is a tragedy, but do you condemn it?

JOHNSON: The entire situation is a tragedy.

Listen, I don't want to see any loss of life. It is a tragedy. And the way you prevent these tragedies is, you support law enforcement...

BASH: But a tragedy could be a car accident.

JOHNSON: ... you calm the situation.

BASH: A tragedy could be a car accident or something happening that is not...

JOHNSON: But you don't allow peaceful...

BASH: ... based on fault.

JOHNSON: You don't allow...

BASH: Do you condemn this?

JOHNSON: You don't allow peaceful protest to turn siege -- into siege.

Listen, I don't want to see anybody lose their life. I don't want to see the violence continue. I don't want to see businesses burned down. I don't want to see economic destruction. I condemn it all.

BASH: OK. Thank you. I want to move on to something that the president said when he was

just a candidate back in 2016. He was speaking at the convention then, and he promised to end crime and violence in the United States if he became president. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Beginning on January 20 of 2017, safety will be restored.

The most basic duty of government is to defend the lives of its own citizens. Any government that fails to do so is a government unworthy to lead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: So, what we are talking about right now is happening under President Trump's watch, the violence in American cities, not to mention 150 -- 180,000 dead from coronavirus.

Is his government, in the president's own words, living up to his own promises? Is he worthy to lead?

JOHNSON: Well -- well, first of all, where the violence is occurring is primarily in big cities that have been governed by Democratic mayors and Democratic governors for decades.

BASH: OK, I know that's the Republican talking point, but he's the president. He made that promise.

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNSON: The way -- the -- well, you know, President Trump has a tendency to overpromise. I generally try and underpromise and try and overdeliver.

BASH: So, did he overpromise when he was running for president four years ago?

JOHNSON: That's a campaign pledge to basically -- to basically support -- to basically support law enforcement and place safety and security as a priority. And that's what you need.

If you want economic prosperity and opportunity, you need a safe and secure community and states in America. That's what I said. That's the goal we all share.

Why don't we concentrate on the goal we all share and figure out how we can actually accomplish it?

Republicans in the Senate, we actually tried to address the problems with policing. And we did it with -- using Tim Scott, who looked at the House bill and found the areas of agreement, put it on the floor of the Senate. And the Democrats said, no, it is either our way or the highway. We won't take just what we can all agree on.

BASH: So...

JOHNSON: We need to have everything as well that we don't agree on.

So, again, we're trying to do this. We're trying to provide the safety and security that America wants.

BASH: It sounds like...

JOHNSON: So, the president is trying to do that as well. Riots is not the answer.

BASH: Well, it sounds like you are, but I'm not sure those tweets are achieving the goal that you're stating this morning.

[09:10:00]

I want to turn to the question of Russia and, more specifically, election interference in the election we're currently in.

The Office of the Director of National Intelligence informed congressional Oversight Committees that it will no longer be briefing in person on election security issues.

Do you think the DNI should continue or his aides should continue to give those briefings?

JOHNSON: Well, they will in written form, and they're not doing it in person because of the leaks, apparently.

Listen, Dana, I have been on top of Russian interference in elections well before 2016. As chairman of the European Subcommittee in Foreign Relations, we held three hearings on the way Russia tries to destabilize the election systems of countries around the world.

BASH: Right. Right. I know that. And I want to get to that, but...

JOHNSON: And that is what they have done successfully, because -- because they were aided and abetted by people like Adam Schiff, Democrats and the mainstream media.

BASH: OK. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on a second. I want to push back on one thing that you just said.

JOHNSON: They can't really -- they have a very difficult time influencing elections.

BASH: Let's focus on the issue at hand, which is the DNI briefing.

You just said because of leaks. My question for you is, first of all, members of the committee, people who sit on the Intelligence Committees dispute that they leak.

But, secondly, why, logically, would having an all-written briefing...

JOHNSON: Big surprise.

BASH: Why would having an all-written briefing do anything to stop leaks?

Wouldn't it make it easier if you have something on a piece of paper?

JOHNSON: Well, first of all, Dana, this -- this -- listen, I -- I sit during -- through secured briefings.

This is being blown so way out of proportion. I could probably count on one or two fingers the things that are actually classified in those briefings. There is no surprise here.

We know that different -- that foreign actors are trying to influence, trying to destabilize our political system. But, again, we're doing Putin's work for him.

What Adam Schiff did with this false narrative, what the news media did in terms of false Russian collusion with the Trump campaign narrative, a criminal investigation, special counsel, that is what has destabilized our politics.

It is how the media and how Democrats have taken that and basically done Vladimir Putin's work for him.

BASH: But this is not about the media. This is about the Constitution and the oversight responsibility that people like you in Congress have.

Shouldn't you have the opportunity to question people who are working on securing the elections, which are happening now?

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNSON: We do, and we will.

And we all know what Putin is doing. China wants Biden to be the next president. We understand that.

But, you know, it is very difficult to change votes. It is very difficult to actually affect the poll numbers. What you can do is destabilize our politics.

BASH: And you -- and you...

JOHNSON: And that's exactly what Russia has succeeded in doing, because of what Adam Schiff, Democrats and the news media have done as a result.

BASH: Do you believe and do you agree with the notion that Russia, as we speak, is trying to destabilize this election?

JOHNSON: Yes. But they always have. They always will. Yes. Yes.

BASH: So, you subscribe to that? You don't push back on that?

JOHNSON: Again, I held hearings on this a couple of years before 2016. I'm not surprised at all by it. Yes, we have to -- we have to take it

very seriously. But we can't play into Putin's hands. We can't blow it out of proportion to destabilize our own political system, which is what's happened over the last three years.

BASH: I want to...

JOHNSON: We have done it to ourselves.

BASH: OK, I want to ask you about something that you're involved in right now.

And that is, you are investigating whether or not Ukraine was involved in 2016.

I want to read to you something from the Senate Intelligence Committee's report suggesting that speculation about Ukraine interference is Russian misinformation.

Here's what this says: "The committee observed numerous Russian government actors from late 2016 until at least January 2020 consistently spreading overlapping false narratives which sought to discredit investigations into Russia interference. The committee identified no reliable evidence that the Ukrainian government interfered in the 2016 U.S. election."

This is the Republican-led committee in the Senate saying this. And you're still investigating these claims.

So, my question is, why are you spending your time doing this...

JOHNSON: Dana...

BASH: ... when the theory that Ukraine was involved has been debunked?

JOHNSON: First of all, that -- first of all, you know, that's your typification that it has been debunked.

BASH: It is not mine.

JOHNSON: My investigation is into questions if Obama...

BASH: It's the -- they worked for two years on this investigation. And these are your Senate Republican colleagues.

JOHNSON: OK, are you going to let -- are you going to let me answer?

BASH: Yes.

I just want to say, this is not my opinion. This is something that came out of the Senate.

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNSON: So -- OK, so my investigation into the corruption of the Obama campaign -- or administration goes back to March of 2015.

Our investigation is quite wide-ranging. Our investigation is primarily using U.S. government documents and sources from the State Department, the Department of Justice, the National Archives, and a Democrat lobbying firm.

BASH: So...

JOHNSON: The only Russian disinformation that I'm aware of that has been involved into our politics is, first of all, in the Steele dossier, and now Democrats inserting it into our records based on a false narrative, a false intelligence product...

[09:15:02]

BASH: So, I have one last question.

JOHNSON: ... that they created and leaked to the media and didn't even tell Chuck Grassley and I about it.

So, it's the Democrats that are -- again, they are being Putin's puppet, not me, not Chuck Grassley.

BASH: OK. We are actually going to have to leave it there.

Thank you for your time this morning, Senate Homeland Security Chairman Ron Johnson. Appreciate it.

JOHNSON: Have a good morning.

BASH: Thank you.

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