CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview With Sen. Rand Paul

Interview

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

Senator, thanks for joining us, as always.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): Good morning.

TAPPER: You have said you don't think there will be any Republican support for removing President Trump in a Senate trial. You will, of course, be a juror in that trial.

So are you still keeping an open mind about this, or have you already decided you will acquit the president?

PAUL: You know, we have seen the evidence. We're going to hear the evidence repeated, but we're not going to see any new evidence.

So I think all of America has seen this. What we have found is, this is a very partisan exercise. There's not going to be any Republicans in the House. In fact, there will be a handful of Democrats who will vote against impeachment in the House.

In the Senate, I think all Republicans will vote against the House. And I think two Democrats have a very good chance of voting against impeachment also. So I think what we have seen is, it is just a partisan thing.

This is a disagreement. People on the Democrat side don't like President Trump. They don't like his demeanor. And so they have decided to sort of criminalize politics.

But I don't think it is a good thing. And I don't think it's a good day for the country. I think it is a sad day, because I hope it doesn't devolve into that every president, like in different parts of Latin America, we either impeach or throw presidents into jail just because we don't like their politics.

I think that will really dumb down and destroy the county.

TAPPER: You're going to swear an oath that says, "I solemnly swear that, in all things appertaining to the trial of the impeachment of Donald John Trump, president of the United States, now pending, I will do impartial justice, according to the Constitution and laws, so help me God."

It doesn't sound like that oath is going to mean very much, if you have already made up your mind, sir.

PAUL: Well, I would disagree.

I would say that my oath is to the Constitution. And I take that very seriously. So, for example, you can interpret the Constitution in different ways.

I interpret the Constitution that we should not be sending foreign aid to other countries. We should be taking care of what we were empowered to do through the Constitution.

And one of them was not borrowing money from China to send it to Ukraine. So, when the Democrats say, oh, we damaged national security by holding up for 55 days for -- money that was going to Ukraine, I say, well, we shouldn't have been doing in the first place.

And I think the money would give to other countries actually damages our national security. So, just because I disagree with the Democrats, though, does that mean my position -- I should be impeached for my position?

[09:05:02]

So it really gets to the heart of this, that this is a disagreement over policy. TAPPER: Yes.

PAUL: And this is a sort of an extension of politics.

But this isn't about the Constitution or the president breaking the Constitution. Foreign aid is always contingent upon behavior. In fact, the money we gave him to give to Ukraine, it says specifically in the law he has to certify...

TAPPER: Right.

PAUL: ... they are less prone to corruption.

So, I mean, he was instructed by Congress to do exactly what he asked to be done.

TAPPER: So you're saying that you think that President Trump was actually doing this because he was combating corruption?

This is, of course, a president...

PAUL: Well, yes, there are all kinds of accusations that Burisma and Hunter Biden and the company were corrupt and the founder of the company was corrupt.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: But this is a president whose former personal attorney Michael Cohen, former campaign chairman Paul Manafort, former National Security Adviser Mike Flynn, former campaign adviser Roger Stone, former deputy campaign chair Rick Gates, former associate George Papadopoulos, all of them have been convicted of federal crimes.

In addition, last year, Trump University settled a $25 million fraud lawsuit. Last month, President Trump admitted misusing his own charitable foundation's money, was ordered to pay $2 million.

You really think President Trump is concerned about rooting out corruption?

PAUL: I think most of what you listed and most of the people that were indicted or convicted were alleged to have been part of some sort of huge Russian conspiracy.

But I think what we found out from the inspector general's report is that it was all based on a false premise that Carter Page had something to do with Russia.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: It was the Trump Justice Department that put -- the Trump Justice Department put all those people in prison or sentenced all those people. It's not me.

(CROSSTALK)

PAUL: Yes.

It turns out -- it turns out -- it turns out that the FBI hid information that Carter Page all along was telling another part of the government, the CIA, about Russian information he was getting incidentally.

TAPPER: That doesn't absolve Paul Manafort of money laundering.

PAUL: Well, no.

No, the whole -- the whole investigation that started this, General Flynn was not guilty of anything to do with Russians.

TAPPER: OK.

PAUL: General Flynn was guilty of not reciting his conversation properly and should have had an attorney with him.

TAPPER: I'm asking you about President Trump and corruption. I'm asking you about President Trump and corruption.

I just listed a number of close associates of President Trump's who are either in prison or facing sentencing.

PAUL: Right. But I think it's based on opinion.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: No, this -- these are sentences. These are criminal sentences.

(CROSSTALK)

PAUL: His opinion -- his -- his -- his opinion on foreign aid is similar to mine. Mine is a little more exacting.

But the president has had doubts on foreign aid. He said the European should pay more. He withheld it.

In fact, the law allows any president to withhold aid as long as they want until the end of the fiscal year. This is in the anti...

(CROSSTALK)

PAUL: ... act.

TAPPER: And Ukraine had been cleared -- Ukraine had been cleared...

PAUL: Right.

TAPPER: ... on the benchmarks it needed to meet in terms -- in terms of getting that aid that Congress passed.

PAUL: Well, no, I think, according to the president -- according to the president, I don't know that he had accepted that that they had been cleared, because he was still holding up their aid. TAPPER: Let me just get back -- I just wanted to know, do you really think President Trump is concerned about corruption? Just a yes or no. Is that something you really believe?

PAUL: Yes, I do.

TAPPER: You do think that.

PAUL: I do think -- I do think that Ukraine -- I think Ukraine has been one of the corruptest countries on Earth...

TAPPER: That's not what I asked.

PAUL: ... whether it was Russian-backed or Western-backed. All the governments of Ukraine have been corrupt.

And, yes, I do think that foreign aid does not cure corruption. I think foreign aid aids and abets corruption. And if you look at studies, you actually find that the more corrupt nations get more money, because we think we're going to somehow make them better.

TAPPER: OK, so you're...

PAUL: But they steal the money.

Look at the Mubaraks in Egypt.

TAPPER: But you're not really answering the question.

PAUL: They stole $20 billion, $30 billion.

Well, sure I'm answering the question. I think you're saying...

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: You're saying you -- you're concerned about corruption.

(CROSSTALK)

PAUL: ... foreign aid.

TAPPER: OK.

But let's be clear here.

PAUL: Well, I think the president was too.

If you listened to the president's speeches throughout his campaign and throughout his administration, he's been concerned with corruption with regard to foreign aid. He -- every time I talk to the president, he's talking about how countries are taking from us and not doing as we have asked them to do and not being good allies.

TAPPER: So, Senator...

PAUL: And so this is a common theme. And I think it's a political point. And I think the Democrats are

trying to impeach him for politics they disagree with.

TAPPER: So, just to be clear, this precedent that you are prepared to set, you would be OK with a president, say, Elizabeth Warren, asking a foreign government to investigate her top Republican rival, as long as there's some -- was some sort of allegation about that Republican rival having some sort of connection to allegations of corruption?

(CROSSTALK)

PAUL: Right.

TAPPER: That's going to be OK with you?

PAUL: I think you all misreport this. But I think you all misreport this.

TAPPER: That's just a fact.

PAUL: What you guys say every time is -- well, it's not.

I mean, what you said is completely untrue.

TAPPER: Wait. No, no, no, no, no.

PAUL: The president didn't call up the president of Ukraine and say -- no, let -- let -- let me finish.

He didn't call up the president of Ukraine and say, investigate my rival.

TAPPER: He said, investigate Joe Biden.

PAUL: He said, investigate a certain person and a certain -- let -- let -- let me finish.

Here's -- here's the thing, is, you guys are not being honest with the facts here. He does not call up and say, investigate my rival. He says, investigate a person.

So let's say I'm the Republican sheriff in my county here in Kentucky.

TAPPER: And Joe Biden is his rival.

PAUL: And let me finish. Let me finish my sentence.

If I'm the Republican sheriff here, and my Democrat opponent son is caught stealing from a liquor store, am I supposed to say, oh, I'm allowed to investigate corruption unless that person is related to someone that might run against me?

So you can't make rules that way. It's either corruption or it's not growing corruption. It happens that, in this case, there were allegations of corruption, and they involved Joe Biden and his son.

[09:10:06]

And the American people, when they hear that Hunter Biden made 50 grand a month, they smell corruption.

TAPPER: If you want to...

PAUL: And I think it was wrong.

And I think he used his office to enrich his son. And I think most Americans agree with us. But you keep saying that the president said, investigate my rival.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: He said, investigate Joe Biden.

(CROSSTALK)

PAUL: No, he said, investigate corruption.

TAPPER: He said, investigate...

(CROSSTALK)

PAUL: It involves -- yes.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: The word corruption does not appear in that transcript, sir.

PAUL: Yes. Right.

TAPPER: The word corruption does not. He said, investigate Joe and Hunter Biden.

But I know you want to -- I know you want to talk about Afghanistan.

(CROSSTALK)

PAUL: Right, who -- who worked for a company -- no, but who worked for a company called Burisma, which had been investigated for many years for corruption.

There are still allegations of corruption against Burisma. And I don't know that we have gotten the full picture of the corruption involved...

TAPPER: He didn't say, investigate Burisma.

PAUL: ... this oligarch and Hunter Biden's...

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: See, he didn't say, investigate Burisma or go investigate all the corrupt companies in your country.

He said, investigate Joe and Hunter Biden.

PAUL: Right.

TAPPER: There's no secret about that.

PAUL: Yes, I know.

TAPPER: But I know you want to talk about Afghanistan. We agreed to do this interview...

(CROSSTALK)

PAUL: Yes.

TAPPER: Do you want talk about Afghanistan or not, because...

PAUL: Absolutely.

I mean, the whole thing is...

TAPPER: OK.

PAUL: ... we should talk about important things, instead of wasting our time on this partisanship, you know?

TAPPER: Well, I don't know that impeaching the president of the United States is a waste of time, in terms of discussing it.

But let's -- let's...

(CROSSTALK)

PAUL: Well, it's completely partisan.

TAPPER: Let me -- I know you want to -- I know you want to...

PAUL: And it has nothing to do with the facts.

TAPPER: All right.

I want to get your view, because I know you want to talk about it, on this stunning new report from "The Washington Post" on Afghanistan, which found that U.S. officials misled the American people by publicly saying that they were making progress in Afghanistan, even though they knew they were not.

We are now three years into the Trump presidency. There are more U.S. service members in Afghanistan and in the Middle East now than there were when Donald Trump took office.

Do you think your foreign policy is actually more in line with Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders than with Donald Trump, at the end of the day, not what he says, but what he does?

PAUL: I think our American soldiers deserve better. And it's been Republican and Democrat administrations, George Bush, President Obama. Look, President Obama put 100,000 troops into Afghanistan.

And now Donald Trump has pledged to bring some out, but hasn't necessarily followed through with it.

I think we should leave Afghanistan. That's my point of view. And I think our soldiers deserve to know what the mission is.

And if our generals behind the scenes and our colonels behind the scenes are admitting that there's not a mission, that we cannot possibly make Afghan into some great American democracy, that we need to come home.

We have needed to come home for more than a decade. And I don't want to see one more life lost. And, yes, I will work with Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren or Donald Trump on trying to make that happen.

But, really, politics and the impeachment is getting in the way of this. It used to be that there was bipartisan support between libertarian-leaning Republicans and some progressives, like Bernie, or Jeff Merkley, or Tom Udall.

But politics has got in the way of this. And because everybody hates Donald Trump so much, they criticize him for trying to leave Syria or Afghanistan, instead of saying, hey, this is an opportunity where we actually could work together to get something done for the country.

TAPPER: Thank you so much, Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, joining us from Bowling Green this morning. Appreciate it.

Thank you, sir.

PAUL: Thank you.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

Source