CNN "The Situation Room" - Transcript: Interview With Rep. Zoe Lofgren
Interview
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Let's talk about Bolton's allegations, the impeachment trial, and more.
Joining us now, one of the House impeachment managers, Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren.
Congresswoman, thanks so much for joining us.
Let me get your reaction first to what our Manu Raju is reporting, that Mitch McConnell, the Senate majority leader, has made clear in a closed-door briefing with various Republican senators that, as of right now, he doesn't necessarily believe they have enough votes locked in to block witnesses.
What's your guess right now?
REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): Well, I don't have a guess.
I think that's good news for the country, because in order to have a fair trial, you have to have evidence and witnesses and documents. So, let's hope that that's the case.
I mean, we're not talking to the Republican senators, so we have no way to really know.
BLITZER: The president's former White House Chief of Staff John Kelly reportedly says -- and I'm quoting him -- "If John Bolton says that in the book, I believe John Bolton."
In other words, he's giving credence to Bolton over what the president has suggested. What do you -- what's your reaction to that?
LOFGREN: Well, I don't know Bolton very well. I have -- did have dealings with General Kelly.
I think that the chances are good that the report of Bolton's account is correct, but we will find out for sure if he comes to the Senate, because he's got to hold up his right hand and swear an oath to tell the truth, and then we will know whether what he said is true.
BLITZER: After failing to mention Bolton's manuscript yesterday, the president's attorney Jay Sekulow, today, he tried to discount those revelations, arguing that the manuscript, in his word, was inadmissible.
What does that tell you about the president's team, the argument that they're making?
LOFGREN: I heard that, and I was really flabbergasted.
I mean, really, the president's team put that piece of evidence at issue and made it really more mandatory for the senators to call Mr. Bolton as a witness.
I thought it was an odd thing for the president's lawyers to do and -- just as a legal matter.
BLITZER: What did you make of their arguments over the past few days, including last night, Alan Dershowitz, Robert Ray? You heard all their points in their opening arguments.
LOFGREN: I did.
Well, Mr. Dershowitz went on for quite some time. His account of the history of it, unfortunately, was lacking, as was his analysis of the law. He might be better off sticking with criminal defense. It's -- it went on for quite some time, and it was not persuasive, because it was wrong.
I do think that, overall, the president's lawyers might have been speaking primarily to one person, and that would be President Trump, from time to time, hoping to please him.
[18:20:12]
But I didn't think they made a persuasive -- they really didn't dispute, for the most part, the evidence and the case made by the managers from the House. So I don't think it was persuasive.
BLITZER: To make his case to the Senate today, the White House counsel Pat Cipollone played a montage of Democrats, including you...
(LAUGHTER)
LOFGREN: Yes. Yes.
BLITZER: ... arguing against the impeachment of President Bill Clinton. This goes back from 21 years. Watch this.
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LOFGREN: By these actions, you would undo the free election that expressed the will of the American people in 1996. In so doing, you will damage the faith the American people have in this institution and in the American democracy.
You will set the dangerous precedent that the certainty of presidential terms, which has so benefited our wonderful America, will be replaced by the partisan use of impeachment. Future presidents will face election, then litigation, then impeachment.
The power of the president will diminish in the face of the Congress, a phenomena much feared by the founding fathers. PAT CIPOLLONE, WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: You were right.
(LAUGHTER)
CIPOLLONE: But I'm sorry to say you were also prophetic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: All right, so what's your response?
LOFGREN: Well, first, I was -- I looked so young and thin.
BLITZER: Well, that was 21 years ago.
LOFGREN: So, that was exciting, the ravages of time.
But Ed Markey, in a way, gave a better speech than I did, because he pointed out that the Republicans then took the phrase high crimes and misdemeanors, struck out the word high, and replaced it with any. And that was the problem that I was trying to address at that time.
There was no high crime and misdemeanor. There was a president who lied about a sexual affair. That did not involve an abuse of presidential powers. In fact, any husband caught lying about an affair could do the same.
He lied under oath. That was a crime. It was wrong. But it wasn't abuse of presidential power.
What it was, was really an effort by the Republicans to get him for something that did not meet the constitutional standards.
That was a point I made throughout the Clinton impeachment.
BLITZER: What's the high crime that President Trump committed?
LOFGREN: He abused his power for his own personal well-being, as we have outlined throughout this trial.
He basically extorted or tried to extort from a foreign ally an investigation or at least an announcement to smear his Democratic -- likely Democratic opponent.
Think of it this way. What if a Democratic president told the attorney general that, if he wanted to get the budget for his department, he had to announce that he was doing a criminal investigation of the Republican who was running against that Democratic president?
That's really the same thing, except this involves a foreign power. It's even worse than that. So, really, I think back more to the Nixon impeachment than the Clinton impeachment. What Trump has done does track what President Nixon did, except that it's even worse because it involved a foreign power.
And, also, he refused to provide any information. I mean, Nixon was much more forthcoming with the Congress than Trump has been with this Congress.
BLITZER: Representative Zoe Lofgren, thanks so much for joining us.
LOFGREN: Thank you.
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