CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview With Sen. Ron Johnson (R-WI)
Interview
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In a letter released late Saturday, House Intelligence Chairman Adam Schiff said that the whistle-blower will not be called, saying that testimony is -- quote -- "redundant and unnecessary."
Joining me now to discuss all of this, a Republican senator who has been directly involved in U.S.-Ukraine policy, Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin, also the chairman of the Senate Homeland Security Committee.
Senator, thanks so much for joining us. We appreciate it.
SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): Good morning, Jake. How are you doing?
TAPPER: So, if we can, first, I would like to try to just get some information, because you had a window into a lot of this, and that the rest of us don't have.
On August 31, you called President Trump to ask him, point blank, whether military aid to Ukraine was being held up in exchange for Ukraine publicly announcing these political investigations.
And you say that the president strongly denied it. But one day later, on September 1, Ambassador Sondland, as he testified to Congress -- quote -- "spoke individually with Mr. Yermak," the Ukrainian adviser to the president of Ukraine, "where I said" -- this is Sondland speaking -- "that the resumption of the U.S. aid would likely not occur until Ukraine provided the public anti-corruption statement that we had been discussing for weeks" -- unquote.
And just to be clear, what that means, by the anti-corruption effort, Sondland had said this was part of a -- quote -- "effort to prompt the Ukrainians to investigate Vice President Joe Biden or his son or to involve Ukrainians directly or indirectly in the president's 2020 reelection campaign" -- unquote.
So, how do you reconcile that the Ukrainians were being told they needed to announce these investigations publicly if they wanted that aid one day after President Trump told you strongly that that was not the case?
JOHNSON: Well, first of all, let me correct your pontification to why I called the president.
I called the president to try and get -- to convince him to let me let President Zelensky know. I was going to make a trip to Ukraine the following week. I met with President Zelensky with Senator Murphy on September 5.
And my main point was, I was trying to get him to give me the clearance say -- to tell President Zelensky that the aid was going to be provided.
And so,when I asked him that, he was, again, very consistent. He said: "Ron, you know what a corrupt place it is. And besides, Ron, why isn't Europe stepping up to the plate? I talked to Angela Merkel and I said, why don't you provide funding for these things? And Angela Merkel tells me, because you will. You know, Ron, you're schmucks."
[09:05:00]
And that was the rationale that he had consistently been providing to certainly me and, I think, other people in his administration of why he had serious reservations -- and I would say legitimate reservations -- about providing hard-earned taxpayer dollars for Ukraine.
TAPPER: So, can I just interject for one second? I want...
(CROSSTALK)
JOHNSON: ... to President Trump.
Listen...
TAPPER: Go ahead. Go ahead.
I just want to -- it is not true that Europe doesn't -- it is not true that Europe doesn't help the Ukrainians. I mean, I just want to -- this is not you saying it. It is President Trump.
JOHNSON: I'm not here to argue. I'm just -- I'm not here to argue with you.
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: I just want our viewers to know.
(CROSSTALK)
JOHNSON: I'm here to provide...
TAPPER: Yes. Yes. I just want to correct the one thing that President Trump said, because the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development says that the E.U. contributed $425.2 million, on average, for 2016-2017. The U.S. was second with $204 million.
Again, I'm not fact-checking you. The president's impression is incorrect.
Go ahead. I'm sorry.
JOHNSON: Yes, Jake, I'm not here to argue the individual points. I'm trying to give you what exactly happened, OK...
TAPPER: Yes. Please.
JOHNSON: ... so your listeners hear a different viewpoint, different perspective.
So I'm the one that raised the issue from my phone call with Gordon Sondland the day before, where he described some type of -- something that Ukraine had to do before President Trump would release the funding.
And when I brought up that scenario, President Trump immediately -- and I have described as adamantly and vehemently -- denied it. So that's really what the purpose of that phone call was.
But going back to the May 23 meeting in the Oval Office -- and this is what Kurt Volker testified that President Trump basically said -- I can't -- you know, I don't have the -- my impression of what the exact quote was, but this is largely true.
Kurt Volker said, this is what President Trump said about Ukraine. They are all corrupt. I don't want to spend any time with that.
That was his general feeling of Ukraine. One of the things I was trying to do, we were all trying to do, is get him to meet with President Zelensky. We felt he would be every bit as impressed with President Zelensky's dedication to fulfilling his mandate to not only defeat, not only fight corruption, but as he said in a speech in Ukraine that Murphy and I attended, to defeat corruption.
We were very confident that, if President Trump would meet President Zelensky, he kind of would feel a soul mate and the support would flow.
And also, Jake, I have to point out, I found out about the withholding of the -- or the holdup in the funding about the end of August, August 29.
TAPPER: Right.
JOHNSON: The funding was released by September 11, largely due to pressure a lot of put on by people like me and Senator Portman and Senator Durbin and other people.
TAPPER: Also the whistle-blower complaint.
JOHNSON: Again, the funding was release. And -- go ahead. Well...
TAPPER: Well, the whistle-blower complaint came out, and then, two days later, the aid was released.
JOHNSON: Well, who knows exactly why.
TAPPER: Right.
JOHNSON: But a lot of us -- a lot of us were trying to put that pressure on.
TAPPER: Fair enough.
JOHNSON: But, again, I remain sympathetic with President Trump's legitimate concerns about the corruption.
When you are going to provide hundreds of million dollars of hard- earned American taxpayer dollars into a system, you want to make sure it is not corrupt.
TAPPER: I think...
JOHNSON: And he has been very consistent in his conversation with me and others that that was his reason for withholding the funding.
TAPPER: Yes.
So, I think the thing is, when he spoke with President Zelensky on July 25, the president, in all his opposition to corruption, only brought up two items. One of them had to do with CrowdStrike and this conspiracy theory that the Ukrainians actually hacked the DNC. And the other one had to do with Joe and Hunter Biden, who he named in particular.
And that's why a lot of the people who have testified, as we have learned this week -- and these are not anti-Trumpers. These are people who either work for President Trump right now or have worked for President Trump. They have testified that they came to see that, when people talked about corruption, they meant Biden, that that is what it actually meant.
A lot of the people, whether it is Gordon Sondland or Fiona Hill or Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, one after the other understood your point of view from, like, oh, the president opposes corruption in Ukraine, and who wouldn't oppose corruption, but that, in actuality, what -- they came to see this was actually -- and I think Fiona Hill used the term code -- this was actually code for investigate the Bidens.
JOHNSON: Well, again, that is their impression.
I have never heard the president say, now, I want to dig up dirt on a potential 2020 opponent.
What I have always heard the president consistently concerned about is what happened in 2016. Why did this -- how did this false narrative of Russian collusion with my campaign occur? Why was I strapped with the special counsel?
(CROSSTALK) TAPPER: Right. And there are two investigations about that, right? There are two investigations.
(CROSSTALK)
JOHNSON: ... his desire to get to the bottom of what happened there. It is a very human desire.
Jake, you are interrupting me, but go ahead. Interrupt me again.
TAPPER: Well, I just want to say, in terms of the investigations into the origins, in May, the attorney general appointed a former U.S. attorney, John Durham, who is very respected, to investigate the origins of the Russia investigation.
There is also the inspector general for the Justice Department investigating whether or not the FBI conducted any FISA abuse or any other abuses.
[09:10:02]
There are investigations into that already by the United States law enforcement community.
JOHNSON: Right.
And, by the way -- and -- and, by the way, I continue with my oversight with Senator Chuck Grassley. And some pretty interesting things that have occurred.
You know, the Politico article back in 2017 mate named Alexandra Chalupa as an American-Ukrainian that was hired by the DNC. Now, through Freedom of Information Act requests, we found out that she visited the White House 27 times during the campaign.
You know, in our oversight letter, we point out that she had a meeting with 16 Ukrainian journalists a month later, the black ledger digging up dirt on...
TAPPER: Yes.
JOHNSON: .. dropping the dime on Paul Manafort occurred.
And Nellie Ohr also talks about working with a Ukrainian politician...
TAPPER: Paul Manafort is in prison.
JOHNSON: ... that has completely admitted trying to, you know, dig up dirt on President Trump as well.
So, there's a lot of smoke out. There's a lot of questions that remain unanswered. And from my perspective, it's a completely legitimate concern on the part of President Trump to find out, what happened?
TAPPER: Yes. JOHNSON: Why I have been tormented?
Why have -- where's this effort to sabotage my -- my -- my presidency since the day after the election?
TAPPER: So...
JOHNSON: I'd be asking the same questions. And, by the way, I am asking the same questions.
TAPPER: So, that's not what President Trump is pushing for, though, when he talks about this DNC-CrowdStrike server conspiracy theory.
(CROSSTALK)
JOHNSON: Jake, that's shorthand.
TAPPER: Listen to President Trump. Listen to President Trump's former homeland security adviser.
JOHNSON: That is shorthand for...
TAPPER: President Trump's former homeland security adviser, Tom Bossert, when it came out that President Trump was pushing for an investigation into this conspiracy theory, this is what Bossert had to say:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM BOSSERT, FORMER WHITE HOUSE HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISER: It's not only a conspiracy theory. It is completely debunked.
Let me just again repeat that it has no validity. The United States government reached its conclusion on attributing to Russia the DNC hack in 2016.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So that's not me. That's -- that's President Trump's former homeland security adviser. But I want to ask you a question...
(CROSSTALK)
JOHNSON: Jake, that is the...
TAPPER: Yes.
JOHNSON: No, listen, listen, listen, that is the server. And that is correct.
But I just pointed out Alexandra Chalupa worked for the DNC. That is a question that remains open.
TAPPER: Yes.
JOHNSON: So that's a legitimate concern. One thing you're seeing that article asked was, why was this funding
withheld? I would ask a different question. Why weren't the Ukrainians asked -- concerned about that well before I met with President Zelensky on September 5?
TAPPER: So...
JOHNSON: I was with President Poroshenko on December 18. There was no problem about this.
At the inauguration, this issue wasn't raised. I meet with Ukrainian representatives all the time.
TAPPER: So...
JOHNSON: Nobody ever raised the issue of the military funding being withheld.
TAPPER: So...
JOHNSON: So, from my standpoint -- and this is -- this is the way I said it to President Zelensky. This is a timing issue.
This is the end of the year. There's a pot of money that hasn't been expended.
TAPPER: So, let me ask you about that timing issue.
JOHNSON: I know Mick Mulvaney and Russ Vought. They're fiscal conservatives, go, why are we spending this with three weeks left in the fiscal year?
TAPPER: Senator...
JOHNSON: That's another plausible explanation.
TAPPER: But the NSC officials testified that this wasn't about being a fiscal conservative for Mulvaney.
Fiona Hill and Vindman, Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, said Sondland said that this agreement, this, you have to announce these public investigations into the Bidens, was being coordinated by Mick Mulvaney.
Does it not concern you that the White House chief of staff reportedly supported this, what is clearly a, you have to do this if you want the money, because, literally -- and you know this because you have been a strong advocate for military aid to Ukraine -- literally, Ukrainians desperately needed this military aid...
JOHNSON: Yes.
TAPPER: .. and were dying, were dying, literally being killed between the time that the money was held up in July and when it was released in September.
So, this isn't just about political games and throwing out names like Alexandra Chalupa.
JOHNSON: Well, Jake, there -- Jake...
TAPPER: This is about people who desperately need military aid getting it.
JOHNSON: Jake -- Jake -- Jake, there's a war going on. And people are dying.
You know, President Obama, we authorized $300 million of lethal defensive weaponry. He never supplied it.
I would take things that Colonel Vindman says with a grain of salt as well, because, in his testimony, he said the Obama administration provided Javelin weapons. They didn't. It was March 2018 that 210 Javelin weapons were finally approved in terms of a movement over to Ukraine.
TAPPER: Right.
JOHNSON: So -- so, again, yes, people are dying. But I ask the question...
TAPPER: So, it doesn't concern you that Mulvaney is bringing up this quid pro quo?
JOHNSON: ... why -- why -- why weren't the Ukrainians -- why weren't the Ukrainians -- why weren't the Ukrainians asking me about, where's all the support? They never brought that issue...
TAPPER: But, sir, it doesn't concern you...
JOHNSON: Poroshenko didn't in my other meetings.
It wasn't until the very end of August, a few weeks before the end of the fiscal year...
(CROSSTALK)
TAPPER: Senator Murphy says that the Ukrainians -- Senator Murphy says the Ukrainians were concerned about the holdup of the aid.
Can I just ask you, though, does it really not concern you at all that Mick Mulvaney...
JOHNSON: Yes, in September, at the end of August, when we all find out about it.
TAPPER: But does it really not concern you at all that Mick Mulvaney has now been -- it's been asserted by Gordon Sondland that Mick Mulvaney was the -- was saying, they can't get this military aid or a White House meeting unless they publicly announce these corruption investigations, which are about Burisma and the Bidens?
[09:15:06]
That doesn't concern you at all?
JOHNSON: Well, from my standpoint, I understand that most of President Trump's advisers wanted the military aid released.
And they were trying to figure out in some, way, shape or form to convince President Trump to approve that release.
It's certainly what I was trying to do in my phone call to him on August 31. So I don't have a problem with advisers trying to figure out some way, shape, or form to convince the boss to do this.
But the relevant question is...
TAPPER: Even if it's for political investigations into his opponent?
JOHNSON: ... what was the president's viewpoint on this?
And my testimony is that, when I raised the issue, he vehemently, adamantly and angrily denied that there was any kind of condition to release that. He was concerned about corruption. He was concerned about the fact that Europe doesn't step up to the plate and provide as much support as they really should, because it's in their backyard.
TAPPER: That's not true. That's not true.
JOHNSON: I'm just telling you what I know about my own conversation with President Trump.
TAPPER: All right, Senator Ron Johnson, we appreciate your time today. Thank you so much.
JOHNSON: Have a good day.
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