CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview With Rep. Michael Turner

Interview

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

Joining me now, a member of the House Intelligence Committee, Republican Congressman Mike Turner of Ohio.

Congressman, thanks so much for joining us this morning.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: And I want to start with that testimony from David Holmes, a top political adviser at the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine.

He says he heard President Trump directly asked Sondland about whether Zelensky was going to do the investigation and that Sondland made it clear that the president was asking about investigation into the Bidens.

What was your reaction?

REP. MICHAEL TURNER (R-OH): Well, the travesty here, Jake, is that this is testimony that's continued to happen down in the basement of the Capitol, and it's not public. You should be playing the tape, not leaked transcripts to you.

As you know, I'm currently under a gag order, because the way that Adam Schiff is doing this in secret, you don't have the actual testimony and I can't comment on it.

But let's say this first off, because I think this is important. Clearly, we all understand that the Zelensky, President Zelensky of Ukraine, would not do anything for Donald Trump, because, obviously, the investigations never happened. But let me give you an example of real time of the danger of this

happening in secret and why this shouldn't be happening. Nothing, by the way, classified is happening down there.

On the testimony that you just heard from Ambassador Taylor last week, Ambassador Taylor spoke of a phone call that happened between Ambassador Sondland and Ambassador Taylor. It was a phone call that was of much speculation in the media and much leaks were about it. And that's where they had been texting. And Ambassador Sondland said, "Call me."

Many networks, including your own, reported that this was scandalous and that he was trying to hold back the information as to what the conversation was, when, in fact, Sondland had already testified down in the secret chamber that the reason why he said "Call me" wasn't nefarious. He just didn't want to continue typing.

And Ambassador Taylor last week confirmed that, once they got on the phone together...

TAPPER: Right.

TURNER: ... that Sondland reported to Taylor that there was no quid pro quo.

TAPPER: Well, that's...

TURNER: But yet there were days that reports that that text was going to be the smoking gun.

And the reason why you didn't know that, although Sondland had already testified, is because this is happening in secret. And, Jake, this should not be happening in secret.

TAPPER: OK, so you have an issue with there being private depositions, even though, of course, that's how Republicans ran the committee when they were in charge as well.

But beyond that, sir, I'm just asking you to address the substance -- the substance...

TURNER: Actually -- actually no, we did classified ones.

But you should have a problem with it, Jake. You should have a problem that you can't play the tape...

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: I like all the information. Of course, I would like all the information to be in the public.

And I'm happy that they're releasing the transcripts. And I'm happy that they're having the hearings in the open, in the public now, absolutely, 100 percent, more transparency, please.

That said... TURNER: Reruns.

TAPPER: ... I'm asking you to address the substance of what David Holmes said he heard, which was President Trump telling Gordon Sondland, "So he's going to do the investigation?"

[09:05:08]

That must alarm you.

TURNER: Well, the I -- I can only comment on the portion which is public, which, as you know, Ambassador Taylor in his opening statement last week referenced this phone conversation.

TAPPER: Right.

TURNER: So, I will -- I will talk about Ambassador Taylor said, because, under the gag order from Adam Schiff, I'm not able to talk about what David Holmes said.

So, what Ambassador Taylor said is that the aide had overheard the word investigations.

Now, as you know, you personally watched Donald Trump at a microphone say that he thought that Ukraine should undertake an investigation of Burisma and of the Bidens' connection to that. So you actually know as much as he does. That's not so scandalous about the fact that he claims to have overheard this conversation, which happened the day after the conversation with President Zelensky.

That conversation, which you have the readout of, the actual words of the president, and he's confirmed, is this the same thing. So he offers nothing new. He offers the same information, still no quid pro quo, still no smoking gun, still the same information.

But yet, according to the Democrats, because they're leaking information to you, it's a bombshell.

TAPPER: Well, I mean, Gordon Sondland, according to Tim Morrison, who testified, whose transcript was released on Saturday, so you can talk about it -- there's no gag order. It's been released.

Tim Morrison said that Sondland went over to Yermak, one of the top aides to President Zelensky, came back and said -- quote -- and this is Tim Morrison saying -- Sondland -- quote -- "related to me that the president was giving him instruction," Sondland and Mick Mulvaney. They both report to the president.

And according to Sondland, Sondland told Yermak, if you want this money released, publicly announce these investigations.

So does that not alarm you?

TURNER: Well, of course, all of that is alarming.

And as I have said from the beginning, I think this is -- this is not OK. The president United States shouldn't even, in the original phone call, be on the phone with the president of another country and raise his political opponent.

So, no, this is -- is not OK.

But if you look at Sondland's testimony, which is also public, he says that the direction that he received from the United States was no quid pro quo, and that, in fact, that he said he wants nothing. He just wants him to do the right thing.

So, Sondland actually testified. And this is the first time ,by the way, that you have direct testimony of someone speaking to the president and relating what the president has said. And what he says directly contradicts this -- this additional -- these statements that are largely hearsay, of someone saying, I heard from someone else who heard from someone else.

When you ask Sondland -- and you have got his testimony -- I think it's around page 124 -- he actually says, I was told by the president of the United States: I want nothing, no quid pro quo. I just want him to do the right thing.

So, we will all have to wait for Sondland's testimony, which is direct testimony, not testimony of somebody who says they heard from somebody else that somebody else said something.

TAPPER: Right. And I hope Sondland tells the truth, because he had to amend his deposition.

TURNER: You know, I hope everybody tells the truth.

TAPPER: I agree, 100 percent.

TURNER: And I -- I -- what I really would like is that the people who are leaking information to you guys tell the truth, because sty after story happens where you report what happened in transcripts, and then, when they come out, they don't match.

TAPPER: That's not true.

TURNER: They're not being -- being straight with you.

TAPPER: Most of...

TURNER: Well, it's what happened on that phone call between Scotland and Taylor. And you can go to page around 225, I think it is, of the transcript.

TAPPER: OK. I'm really -- in the interest of time, I would just like to focus on what the president did...

TURNER: Sure.

TAPPER: ... and what you think about it, because I guess one question I have is, you have Sondland and you have Mulvaney publicly saying that, in order for people -- either publicly saying it or saying it in their depositions behind closed doors that have now been released.

In order for them to get the money or to get a White House meeting, they need to do these political investigations. We have Rudy Giuliani also pushing for these political investigations into the Bidens.

Do you think that Sondland...

TURNER: Actually, you don't have that. You don't have that, because you actually have the testimony of Sondland where he says the opposite, Jake. He says the opposite.

TAPPER: No, he says that President Trump -- well, that's another thing that's interesting.

He says President Trump says, there's no quid pro quo, tell them there's no quid pro quo, but they need to do such and such.

So just saying that something isn't a quid pro quo, when you are then demanding that someone says or does something, doesn't vanish, doesn't make the quid pro quo inherent vanish.

Do you really think that there are no Ukrainians who were under the impression...

TURNER: Jake...

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: Let me just ask you this question. And please answer it.

Do you really think there were no Ukrainians who were under the impression that they needed to publicly announce these investigations in order to get the White House meeting or the aid, the $400 million, they so desperately needed?

Do you think no Ukrainians were under that impression?

TURNER: The only two that I can speak to, because I'm obviously not psychic as to what Ukrainians think, but the president of Ukraine and the foreign minister -- and the foreign minister just recently came out with his statement -- have both stated that they were not under that impression, they did not believe that it was tied, and they did not believe that there was pressure.

[09:10:07]

So, I can only tell you what is the public accounts of what Ukrainian statements have been. And their statements have been that that's not true.

TAPPER: Let me ask you another question, sir.

President Trump was attacking Ambassador Yovanovitch as she was starting her testimony on Friday.

He tweeted -- quote -- "Everywhere Marie Yovanovitch went turned bad," apparently blaming her for what's happened in Somalia, what's happened in Ukraine, other places.

Chairman Schiff read her the tweet during the hearing. I'm sure she would have read it during the break anyway.

She said that she found it intimidating.

Does it concern you at all that a witness found what President Trump tweeted to be intimidating?

TURNER: Well, I mean, Jake, I think, along with most people, I find the president's tweets generally unfortunate.

But let's say this that I think is very important about all of it. And that is that Adam Schiff has been on a three-year quest to impeach this president. He replaced the staff at the Intelligence Committee with prosecutors, instead of experts in, like, nuclear weapons, terrorism and the like.

TAPPER: He opposed impeachment until recently.

(CROSSTALK)

TURNER: He changed the staff, so it became a -- an impeachment staff. For three years, he's been pursuing it.

So it's kind of laughable that, in the middle of the hearing, he reads a witness a tweet that she's up until that point unaware of, and then says, shazam, eureka, I have another reason to impeach the president.

He's had reasons for three years. He's going to continue to. He's on the quest for impeachment. He's obsessed with impeaching the president of the United States. And a majority of the Democrats were already on record of wanting to impeach this president before the Ukrainian call even happened.

TAPPER: But...

TURNER: So I'm certain we will continue to see the long list of new reasons why Adam Schiff thinks this president should be impeached.

TAPPER: I get you don't like Congressman Schiff.

But you do find it concerning that a witness, I think, in real time found it...

TURNER: I think he doesn't like the president.

TAPPER: OK.

But you do find it concerning that a witness in real time found the president's tweet to be -- quote -- "intimidating"? That is something that concerns you?

TURNER: It's certainly not impeachable, and it's certainly not criminal, and it's certainly not witness intimidation.

It certainly wasn't trying to prevent her or would it have prevented her from testifying. She was actually in the process of testifying.

(CROSSTALK)

TURNER: But, nonetheless, I find the president's tweet unfortunate. I find the president's tweet unfortunate.

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: If a witness says she's intimidated -- if a witness says she's intimidated, how is it not witness intimidation?

TURNER: Well -- well, there's a difference between, I feel intimidated, I'm intimidated to testify, which is what Adam Schiff was saying.

Adam Schiff was saying, well, you're intimidated now, so you won't testify completely or fully.

And that's not the case. Clearly, she testified completely and fully. I was there. Hopefully, you watched it. She was in no means intimidated and prevented from testifying.

TAPPER: Well, just like you're not a mind-reader, I'm not a mind- reader. I have no idea whether it affected her testimony.

If she says she found it intimidating, is it not possible that she held back or shaded her answers because she didn't want to upset the most powerful person in the universe any further? Is that not possible?

TURNER: Well, I think you overstate Donald Trump's powers, hopefully.

But we had a lot of discussions with the ambassador about feelings. I think that, though, the real aspect was when we had straight testimony -- and I think that testimony was not inhibited.

TAPPER: Congressman Mike Turner of Ohio, it's great in Dayton. We appreciate your time today.

TURNER: Thank you. Thank you.

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