CNN "The Situation Room" - Transcript: Interview With Rep. Jim Himes (D-CT); Giuliani Back in Ukraine; House Proceeds With Articles of Impeachment
Interview
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Joining us now, Congressman Jim Himes. He's a Democrat. He serves on the House Intelligence Committee that's played a leading role in this impeachment investigation.
Congressman, thanks so much for joining us.
And let's get to the news of the day, the historic announcement, the speaker, Nancy Pelosi, advancing the impeachment investigation to the next phase, as she says, there is -- quote -- "no choice" but to proceed with articles of impeachment against the president. So, what do you want those articles, Congressman, to include?
REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT): Yes, well, there's a couple of things that are very obvious, Wolf.
And they're pretty easy for folks to understand. The president invited, in fact, demanded that a vulnerable new president of the Ukraine investigate his political opponent. It's as simple as that, right?
And my Republican friends in this building are not even denying that that occurred. Now, he also did it while he was, for absolutely no other reason, holding up $400 million in military aid, which gave great aid and comfort, that act, to the Russians.
He fired an ambassador, not because that ambassador was bad -- this ambassador, of course, was one of the very best we have -- but because Rudy Giuliani didn't like her and because a bunch of gangsters associated with Rudy Giuliani didn't like her.
And then, lastly -- and this is really important to those of us in this building -- and, of course, the American public is split on what I just talked about. But the president has said that: I have no obligation whatsoever to provide documents, to provide people, to provide testimony to the Congress of the United States.
And this is where we should leave behind our Republican and partisan labels. A president of the United States who is claiming the absolute immunity that this president claims, that he's got no obligation, just because he doesn't like the impeachment hearings, to obey Congress' subpoenas, that is not a president.
That is a king. That is a dictator. And so the contempt that Donald Trump has shown the Congress of the United States, which, by the way, goes way beyond anything that Nixon or Clinton did, needs to be addressed in those articles of impeachment.
BLITZER: Democrats are at odds, Congressman, over whether material from the Mueller report should also be included in the articles, in addition to Ukraine. What's your stance?
HIMES: Yes, you know, I understand why that's a question.
It does feel like the Mueller report was a long time ago. But people should go back and read volume two of the Mueller report, and actually read the whole report, in which the president, and, as Mueller said, not on an indictable basis, but as the president and his people invited people -- the Russians in to participate.
He also did things like firing the director of the FBI because he didn't like an investigation that the FBI was doing. Again, that is just absolutely unprecedented and blatant disregard for the concepts of checks and balances.
So, I don't know how you look at volume two, where Bob Mueller says, here are 10 instances of obstruction of justice, a crime that would send every -- that would send every other American to jail, I'm not quite sure how you look at those 10 counts and say, yes, we ought to just let that slide.
BLITZER: So you say include it.
House Intelligence Committee lawyers, the counsels, they will present your committee's findings on Monday before the House Judiciary Committee.
Will they reveal new evidence?
[18:10:01]
HIMES: I don't think so.
As you know, our investigation continues, because there's still a lot of unanswered questions out there.
But, Wolf -- and, again, I will say it again, the evidence and the reason we can move fairly quickly here, the reason Speaker Pelosi came out this morning as definitively as she did, is that the evidence is very, very clear of what the president did.
And, again, my Republican friends who are completely given over to his defense are not trying to say that he didn't pressure Ukraine to investigate Biden. They're just saying, well, that's his right. He's got the right to fire ambassadors and that sort of thing.
So there's just so much evidence out -- evidence out there of behavior that was designed not in the interest of United States national security, not in the interest of our foreign policy, but in the interest, the political interest of Donald Trump, that it's pretty -- it's not going to be hard to present that evidence in a pretty clear way.
BLITZER: The president says he wants the House Intelligence Committee chairman, Adam Schiff, to testify if there's a trial in the Senate.
Should he?
HIMES: Well, this is the defense, right?
The defense -- if anybody who tuned into the hearings in the last two weeks, not just lifelong diplomats and military officers, but people who gave millions of dollars -- Ambassador Sondland -- to Donald Trump, the president's political supporters came in front of us and said the president was working a quid pro quo extortion scheme.
Everyone said that. So, what was the defense that we saw in those last two weeks? Adam Schiff is a mean guy. That was the defense.
So the fact that they're now saying that Adam Schiff should come testify, look, I'm a big believer in transparency. If Adam Schiff testifies -- and I think it is all about distraction and asking the American people not to look at gangster-like behavior by the president. But if Adam Schiff comes and testifies, if Joe Biden shows up and
testifies, what the American people will learn is that there was no misbehavior, that Joe Biden asking that a corrupt prosecutor be fired was part at that time of American foreign policy.
So, look, these guys are asking for things that, if they get, is going to cast into sharper relief the misbehavior of the president.
But let's keep in mind that it's all about distraction.
BLITZER: The president's personal attorney Rudy Giuliani once again inserting himself in Ukrainian affairs, right now traveling to Ukraine, and then tweeting this.
I will read it to you: "The American people will learn the Biden and other Obama administration officials contributed to the increased level of corruption in Ukraine between 2014 to 2016. This evidence will all be released very soon."
You're on the Intelligence Committee. You have looked into these allegations. What's your response?
HIMES: I think the legal term for what Mr. Giuliani saying is a lie.
He is simply, as he has done over and over and again, and as the president, his client, has done over and over again, is lying.
Joe Biden was undertaking the official foreign policy of the United States, working as part of a long effort that everybody understood, that the president at the time supported, to try to improve corruption in Ukraine.
That is not what Donald Trump was doing. Donald Trump did not use the word corruption once in his conversations with the Ukrainian president. He talked about Burisma and Biden.
So, look, this is all part -- I talked a little bit about the distraction. This is all about distraction. And it's not just distraction like, gosh, Joe Biden did some stuff too, which is just complete baloney. I guess Biden would call it malarkey.
But it is also in the service of Vladimir Putin. And let me be very clear about this. When my Republican colleagues or senators say that, well, the president was just investigating, and maybe Ukraine meddled in our election in 2016, not only are they flying in the face of the unanimous conclusion of our intelligence community, but they are advancing Vladimir Putin's talking points.
And that's what's happening here, Wolf.
BLITZER: Congressman Jim Himes, thanks so much for joining us. You're going to have a busy few weeks coming up.
HIMES: Thank you. BLITZER: There's more breaking news just ahead on the substance and
the stakes, as Democrats are officially now going forward with articles of impeachment against the president.
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