NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Rand Paul

Interview

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CHUCK TODD:

Joining me now is Republican senator Rand Paul of Kentucky. He also sits on the Foreign Relations Committee, on the Senate side. Senator Paul is also the author of the new book, "The Case Against Socialism". Senator Paul, welcome back to Meet The Press, sir.

SEN. RAND PAUL:

Thanks, Chuck. Thanks for having me.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me start with the news of the morning. I hope you caught our report from Richard Engel and what he's seeing on the ground. I know where your views are philosophically and I want to get to that in a minute. But are you concerned that this decision was too hasty and it, and it sort of created a more chaotic situation than necessary?

SEN. RAND PAUL:

Well, I think one of the things about the Arab militias that Turkey is using that your reporter reported on, it's interesting that some of them are from the Free Syrian Army, which was our ally for seven years, which just shows how messy this is. Turkey's an ally, the Free Syrian Army was an ally for seven years, and the Kurds have been allies in Syria. So it's a very complicated, messy situation. But I think a lot of people are not acknowledging that Turkey was coming in one way or another and 50 soldiers would simply be in the way and be a tripwire to a much worse outcome. And so I think the president was right in moving 50 soldiers out of the way of an onslaught of tens of thousands of Turkish troops.

CHUCK TODD:

Why are you so convinced of that? It seems as if -- and I'm not going to get to whether it was exactly 50 and all of that, but it does seem as if our soldiers being there was serving as a deterrent to Erdogan --

SEN. RAND PAUL:

Well, they were --

CHUCK TODD:

--for a period of time.

SEN. RAND PAUL:

They were until they weren't. I mean they were until the Turks decided they were coming. The Turks gave us forewarning they were coming. And the president made a judgment that I think most military commanders would agree with, that you don't have 50 soldiers, you don't go to war with 50 soldiers. 50 soldiers don't deter anything. Once the Turks said they were coming it would've been foolish to leave 50 soldiers in the wake of tens of thousands of people coming across the border. This is a --

CHUCK TODD:

I want to bring -- go ahead.

SEN. RAND PAUL:

-- hundred-year-old war between the Turks and the Kurds. Realize the president's asking is it in our national security interest to somehow figure out how the Kurds can live with the Turks? The other interesting thing that people don't mention is all the Kurds aren't the same. The Iraqi Kurds actually are cooperating with Turkey to turn in Kurdish Workers Party officials that they see as terrorists. So the Iraqi Kurds are actually turning over some of these Kurds that are aligned with the Syrians. So realize that all the Kurds aren't the same on every side of every border.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, I'm glad you brought this up. When you were running for president you actually -- you had a proposal on how you would handle this situation at the time and I want to play it for you 'cause I'm curious if you still hold the same view. Take a listen.

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SEN. RAND PAUL:

So I would provide armaments to the Kurds as well. In fact, I'd go one step further. I'd promise them a homeland and a state. But I would do it in conjunction with talks with Turkey. It would have to be a three-way discussion, Kurds homeland. But I'd like to get the Turks involved as well.

(END TAPE)

CHUCK TODD:

Look, it's an interesting proposal. I think you're not alone in that. I think a lot of folks would argue that at some point the Kurds need a home. Have you shared that idea with the president?

SEN. RAND PAUL:

I haven't talked specifically about it, but the interesting thing is they kind of do have a homeland. There's a Kurdish semi autonomous region in Iraq. So what I was referring to is Iraq. And I still do agree with that sentiment. But here's one of the interesting things: As we've gotten stability in Iraq and as the Kurds have a lot of self-control in governing sort of like a province, there's actually 1,800 Turkish businesses doing business in that part of Iraq that is controlled by the Kurds. It's a prosperous oil region, and there's back and forth between the Turks and the Kurds. And it actually works pretty well. But these Kurds don't actually get along with the Syrian Kurds so well. And many of the Syrian Kurds have been trying to break off part of Turkey into an independent country. It's been going on for really close to 100 years. Many of the Kurds in Syria actually were expelled or exiled from Turkey back in the 1920s, '30s, and '40s. So there's this long history. And the question we have to ask is, and I have to ask, am I going to send the sons and daughters of American mothers and fathers, am I going to send them there to die to try to figure out how the Kurd and the Turks can get along? And I don't see that in our national interest. And we should vote on it. We should vote on it in Congress and declare war if that's what people want.

CHUCK TODD:

Senator, what do you -- I get that. What about that line that says, "America made a commitment to these folks." You may not have agreed with that policy decision at the time, but abandoning them could lead to a worse outcome. Look, that's a -- these are not easy decisions. I'm not -- but what do you say to that line?

SEN. RAND PAUL:

But, you know, what President Trump said was not, "I'm committed to making a Kurdish homeland in Syria." What he said is, "We're going to wipe out ISIS," which was to the benefit also of the Kurdish people who live in that region.

CHUCK TODD:

But if ISIS is back --

SEN. RAND PAUL:

So we never pro -- no, well, that's, that's to be debated. What I would say is ISIS has been militarily defeated and whether they come back or not is conjecture at this point. But what I would say is this. We have to debate in Congress. Our -- my oath is to the Constitution. My oath isn't to some promise that somebody thinks we made for a Kurdish homeland. We should vote. And here's the reason why we won't vote. They don't know who to declare war on. We're going to declare war on Turkey? We're going to declare war on the Free Syrian Army, which was our ally for seven years? Are we going to declare war on Assad? And really, to tell you the truth, what needs to happen is we need to exert our leverage and our pressure to bring all sides together. And ultimately it's probably in the Kurd's best interest to be aligned with Assad. But as long as we continue to say, "Assad has to go," we're never getting to a peaceful situation. Assad is staying. And if Assad were aligned with the Kurds and the Kurds were given some semi-autonomy in their region, it could develop the way it is Iraq currently. In Iraq, they have a semi autonomous region. What if the Kurds were under Syrian sovereign entity, but had a semi autonomous region up there? You might find some peace with that if Syria would guarantee that they're not going to have incursions across the border into Turkey, which means everybody needs to be at the table having this discussion.

CHUCK TODD:

Very quickly, the president at the same time this week quietly sent more troops to Saudi Arabia and claims that the Saudis are going to pay for those troops. Are you comfortable with the U.S. military being treated almost like a mercenary force for the Saudis?

SEN. RAND PAUL:

I'm not. In fact I would withhold troops and arms from the Saudis until we see better behavior. I think that our arms are uniquely -- belong to the American people and that we shouldn't be sending them to the Saudis until we see a change in their behavior. But it's inconsistent to say we're not going to be there for endless senseless wars and then to have them in Saudi Arabia. One of the things that Bin Laden said motivated him, it's not a justification obviously, it was terrible and he got what he deserved, but one of the things he said that motivated him were troops in what they considered to be their holy land. And so I think having troops in Saudi Arabia becomes a magnet for all the crazy jihadists around the world to motivate them to attack again.

CHUCK TODD:

On the issue of impeachment and what's been going on, I'm curious, are you disturbed at all by the role Rudy Guiliani's been playing as a private citizen here, possibly dabbling in foreign -- foreign affairs in ways that frankly is now being investigated. But there seems to be almost, like, a shadow foreign policy that he might have been running. Does that bother you at all?

SEN. RAND PAUL:

I think what's interesting about this is both sides seem to be doing the same thing. If anything is consistent here it's that both parties have tried to involve themselves in Ukraine. So for example, four senators, Democrats, wrote a letter to the Ukrainian government and said, "If you don't keep investigating Trump we may reconsider our bipartisan support for your aid." Both parties seem to be doing this. And that's why I think ultimately the American people are going to say -- they're going to throw up their hands and say, "Well, Biden threatened the aid. You know, Menendez threatened the aid" --

CHUCK TODD:

But that, but that is a misleading --

SEN. RAND PAUL:

"Murphy threatened the aid"--

CHUCK TODD:

I understand that they could get gaslit and think that it's all equal in both sides of it. But I'm talking about --

SEN. RAND PAUL:

Well, I mean, it's an argument --

CHUCK TODD:

-- specifically --

SEN. RAND PAUL:

I think it is an argument that they're both doing the same thing.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, then do two wrongs make a right?

SEN. RAND PAUL:

Well, what I would do is I wouldn't give them any aid. I wouldn't give them any aid 'cause we don't have any money. We're borrowing that money from China to send it to Ukraine. So I disagree with trying to manipulate them in any way. I just wouldn't give them the aid, period. I wouldn't say, "You get the aid if you do X for me." I would say, "We don't have the money. Let's take care of stuff at home. Let's build roads and bridges in America not over there."

CHUCK TODD:

Are you comfortable with the role Rudy Guiliani's been playing on behalf of the president?

SEN. RAND PAUL:

I don't really know enough about what he's doing. I knew he traveled over there to try to seek information on Hunter Biden's corruption. I think a lot of America's see the $50,000 a month Hunter Biden was making and it doesn't pass the smell test. I think most people do think there was some corruption involved with Hunter Biden. And I hope we do get to the bottom of it.

CHUCK TODD:

Right. I see that you wanted to get that in there. So you think it's perfectly legitimate for the president to use his personal attorney to go to a foreign country and seek help for a political campaign?

SEN. RAND PAUL:

I think it's equally as legitimate as the Democrats going there and saying, "Hey, we should investigate Trump." They really did. Menendez and --

CHUCK TODD:

They were talking about Paul Manafort.

SEN. RAND PAUL:

-- four other Senators --

CHUCK TODD:

They were talking about Paul Manafort --

SEN. RAND PAUL:

-- wrote a letter --

CHUCK TODD:

-- who was doing some shady business who's now in jail --

SEN. RAND PAUL:

Right. Democrat Senators -- I know.

CHUCK TODD:

-- for the business he was doing.

SEN. RAND PAUL:

But Democrat senators --

CHUCK TODD:

Was that not legitimate?

SEN. RAND PAUL:

-- did the same thing -- well, here's the thing is if you're going to condemn Trump you need to condemn the Democrat senators. It shouldn't be just one-sided. Everybody's going after President Trump. Someone needs to actually, in an objective way, evaluate a letter from four Democrats that said to Ukraine, "If you don't keep investigating Trump we will reconsider our bipartisan support for aid." That's a threat. And that's the same kind of stuff they're accusing Trump of. But nobody's talking about that the Democrats are doing exactly the same thing.

CHUCK TODD:

Unfortunately I'm out of time. Senator Rand Paul, good luck with your new book. Thanks for coming --

SEN. RAND PAUL:

Thank you--

CHUCK TODD:

-- on and sharing your views. I appreciate it.

SEN. RAND PAUL:

Thank you.

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