NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Ron Johnson
Interview
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CHUCK TODD:
I'm now joined by two members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee who have spent a lot of time working together actually on military aid to Ukraine, Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin and Chris Murphy of Connecticut. I'm going to begin our discussion this morning with Senator Johnson. Senator Johnson, welcome back to Meet the Press, sir.
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
Morning, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with something you told The Wall Street Journal late last week. You had said when Mr. Sondland -- Gordon Sondland seemed to imply that -- the frozen military aid was connected to a promise by Zelensky for investigations, you said, "At that suggestion, I winced. My reaction was, 'Oh God. I don't wanna see those two things combined.'" Why did you wince and what did you mean by "those two things combined?"
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
Well, fir-- first of all, your setup piece was --you know, typically, very unbiased. But, you know, le -- let me first, before I started answering all the detailed questions, let me just talk about why I'm pretty sympathetic with what President Trump has gone through. You know, I'm 64 years old. I have never in my lifetime seen a president, after being elected, not having some measure of well wishes from his opponents. I've never seen a president's administration be sabotaged from the day after election. I -- I've never seen -- no-- no measure of honeymoon whatsoever. And so what President Trump's had to endure, a false accusation -- by the way, you've got John Brennan on -- you oughta ask Director Brennan what did Peter Strzok mean when he texted Lisa Page on December 15th, 2016?
CHUCK TODD:
Senator?
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
Quote --
CHUCK TODD: Can we -- Senator--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
C-- no, no, no, Chuck --
CHUCK TODD:
Senator--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--Chuck, let me-- let me finish. "Think--"
CHUCK TODD:
What does this have to do--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
"--think our sisters--"
CHUCK TODD:
--with Ukraine--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
"--have begun leaking like mad, scorned and worthy political--"
CHUCK TODD:
What does this have to do with Ukraine?
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
They're k-- they're k-- it has everything to do with Ukraine. Now listen. S-- "Think our sisters have begun le-- linking l-- leaking like mad, scorned and worried and political. They're kicking into overdrive." Now, that was December 15th. Six days before that is when we first started hearing the CIA leaking about Russia supporting the Trump campaign. Th-- th-- there's the-- that is why Trump is so upset. He had this false narrative, that resulted in him being set by up James Comey in -- on January 16th. Then he has the--
CHUCK TODD:
Senator--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--Special Counsel appointed that has hampered his entire investigation--
CHUCK TODD:
Senator?
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--his entire-- his entire-- his entire administration. And now, once he's been-- that was proven false, he would like to know and I would like to know and I know his supporters would like to know, where did this all come from? Who planted that false story?
CHUCK TODD: Senator --
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
Who leaked? You know, I-- I have-- I have my third letter into the Inspector General of the Intelligence--
CHUCK TODD: All right, Senator--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--Committee, asking to just confirm-- just confirm, are you investigating those leaks that Peter Strzok talked about in that--
CHUCK TODD:
All right, Senator--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--text to Lisa Page--
CHUCK TODD:
--I have no idea why--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
We're gettin'-- no, that's-- that's--
CHUCK TODD:
--why--
SEN.RON JOHNSON:
--a setup. It is entirely--
CHUCK TODD: -- why a Fox--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--relevant to this point.
CHUCK TODD:
--why a Fox News conspiracy, propaganda stuff is popping up on here.
SEN.RON JOHNSON:
It is--
CHUCK TODD:
I have no idea--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
It is not. That is--
CHUCK TODD:
I have no idea--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--that is-- that is exac--
CHUCK TODD:
--why we're goinG here.
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--that is ex-- that is--
CHUCK TODD:
Senator, I'm asking--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
Because this is underlying--
CHUCK TODD:
--about--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--exactly why--
CHUCK TODD:
I'm as--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--President Trump is upset and why his supporters are upset--
CHUCK TODD:
All right, w--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--at the news media.
CHUCK TODD:
Oh, okay, this--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
You know-- you know, Chuck--
CHUCK TODD:
--is not about the media--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--here's the deal, here's the deal--
CHUCK TODD:
--Senator Johnson -- Senator Johnson, please!
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--is at the-- s--
CHUCK TODD:
--can we please--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
Go ahead.
CHUCK TODD:
--answer the question that I asked you instead of trying to make Donald Trump feel better here that you're not criticizing him--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
I'm not-- I'm not.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm just trying--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
I'm tr-- I'm trying to lay the groundwork--
CHUCK TODD:
--to ask you a simple question--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--of your very biased opening--
CHUCK TODD:
--of what made you what made you wince. What-- I'm asking a simple question about you, clearly, were upset that somehow there was an implication--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
Yeah-- I was--
CHUCK TODD:
--that military aid was--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--I was-- I was--
CHUCK TODD: --being frozen--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
--because the president wanted an investigation. Why did you wince?
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
Right, but th-- because I didn't want those connected. And I-- I wanted-- I was supporting the aid, as is Senator Murphy, as is everybody that went to that initial inauguration. But here's the salient point of why I came forward. When I asked the president about that, he completely denied it. He adamantly denied it. He vehemently, angrily denied it. He said, "I'd never do that." So tha-- that is the-- the piece of the puzzle I'm here to report today that, unlike-- unlike the-- the narrative of the press that President Trump wants to dig up dirt on his 2020 opponent, what he wants is he wants to-- an accounting of what happened in 2016. Who set him up? Did things spring from Ukraine? You know, there's a good piece. We've got an oversight letter on -- from Politico in 2017 where-- le-- let me-- let me quote the article. It says, "Ukrainian government officials tried to help Hillary Clinton and undermine Trump. They did so by disseminating documents implicating a top Trump aid in corruption, suggesting they were investigating the matter. Ukrainian officials also reportedly helped Clinton allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisors." There is potential interference in-- in the 2016 campaign--
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you this--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
That's what Trump wants to get to the bottom of. But the press doesn't want to.
CHUCK TODD:
Ambassador--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
The people who wrote this article are being pilloried. I'm being called a conspiracy theorist. John Solomon's being called a conspiracy theorist because the press is horribly biased. And Trump and his supporters--
CHUCK TODD:
Hey, look--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--completely understand that.
CHUCK TODD:
--I understand that a way to avoid answering a question is to attack us in the press. I'm well aware of that.
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
No, no, well--
CHUCK TODD:
And that doesn't work.
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--I'm tr-- I'm trying to lay--
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you something--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--the groundwork in order to answer your question--
CHUCK TODD:
--that Ambassador Volker said. Let me tell you what Ambassador Volker said under oath. And I'm curious if you shared this concern. Ambassador Volker said this. "I explained that I believed that Mayor Giuliani continues to have a negative view of Ukraine based on assertions of actions that happened in 2016 and that this viewpoint is likely making its way to the president." Were you concerned that Rudy Giuliani's disinformation campaign, sort of Ukrainian propaganda campaign was negatively influencing the president's views of the current Ukrainian president?
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
Well, certainly, the reports, not only from-- Rudy Giuliani, but from Ken Vogel out-- out of Politico and John Solomon doing some pretty good investigative reporting. Now The Washington Post is attacking him, undermining him. All that information, we have never got the answers to those questions. Chuck, I wanna get to the truth. I-- I'm not here defending the president. I-- I'm not here to denounce him either. What I'm here is telling you my-- my piece of this-- the puzzle here, giving you my honest assessment of what I heard, how-- how the president told me repeatedly in the May 23rd Oval Office visit, on the phone on the 31st, the reason he had very legitimate concerns and reservations about Ukraine is first, corruption, generalized. It's endemic. We all know that. And then specifically about what kind of interference--
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think Paul Manafort--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--in the 2016 election. And also-- and also--
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think Paul -- you think Paul Manafort--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
the fact that Europe is not--
CHUCK TODD:
--was framed?
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--stepping up to the plate.
CHUCK TODD:
You think Paul Manafort was framed?
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
No. You know, obviously, he was convicted. But there's a lot of other stuff going on back then too. You know, Hillary Clinton's campaign was searching for dirt. Maybe not only on Paul Manafort, but trying to keep president or Vice President Biden out of the primary for the Democratic campaign. So again--
CHUCK TODD:
All--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--again, Chuck--
CHUCK TODD:
All right--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--the B -- the bottom line is--
CHUCK TODD:
Why-- why--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--there are so many questions--
CHUCK TODD: --let me ask you this, Senator--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--unanswered. So again-- no, ask-- ask--
CHUCK TODD:
Why is the president--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--John Brennan--
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you this.
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--what-- what was Peter str-- what did Peter Strzok mean when, "The sisters have begun leaking like mad"? Wh-- what-- what was the CIA scorned and worried about? What were they kicking into overdrive? There's one-- there's a key question I want answered among, I don't know about 100 others--
CHUCK TODD:
So Senator, do you-- do you not believe the Russians interfered in the presidential elections to benefit Donald Trump?
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
They-- they abs-- they absolutely did. They absolutely did. And I don't know to what extent the Ukrainians did. I don't know to what extent DNC and Hillary Clinton campaign were involved in kinda juicin' up the-- the Ukrainian involvements as well.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you just ask those--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
There are a lot of unanswered questions. Chuck, I just want the truth. The American people want the truth.
CHUCK TODD:
So, do you not trust the amer--
SEN.RON JOHNSON:
Trump-- President Trump's supporters--
CHUCK TODD: --do you not trust the FBI?
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--want the truth.
CHUCK TODD:
You don't trust the CIA? I'm--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
No, no I don't--
CHUCK TODD:
--I'm just very confused here.
SEN.RON JOHNSON:
Absolutely not--
CHUCK TODD:
You don't trust any of those--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--after Peter Strzok--
CHUCK TODD:
--agencies?
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--and Lisa Page? Af-- after James Comey--
CHUCK TODD:
Okay -- you believe the FBI--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--and Peter s-- Peter Strzok--
CHUCK TODD:
--and the CIA--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--John Brennan--
CHUCK TODD:
--these government agencies--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
No, I don't trust any of these guys in the Obama administration. I don't trust any of 'em.
CHUCK TODD:
You don't trust them now? Do you trust them now?
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
No, I d-- I didn't trust 'em back then.
CHUCK TODD:
And you don't trust them now?
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
I-- I do not trust John Brennan. I do not trust--
CHUCK TODD:
Do you trust the CIA--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--th-- s-- Lisa Page--
CHUCK TODD:
--and FBI now-- because-- none of them have--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
Andrew McCabe--
CHUCK TODD:
--come to any of the conclusions--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--I don't trust those guys.
CHUCK TODD:
--you're trying to come to. I'm just curious, do you trust them now?
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
W-- now, who're you talking about?
CHUCK TODD:
The CIA and the FBI.
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
I don't trust Andrew McCabe.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you trust the C--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
I don't trust Andrew McCabe. I don't trust James Comey. I don't trust Pe--Peter Strzok. I don't trust John Brennan.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator, let me ask you this.
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
I-- I-- I've got--
CHUCK TODD:
'Cause one of the things--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--a lotta questions that have remained--
CHUCK TODD:
--one of the things--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--not answered.
CHUCK TODD:
--that you came on here to do--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
I just want the truth, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
I-- so would I--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
I just want the ch-- truth. No, you--
CHUCK TODD:
So would I--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--you -- you set this thing up totally biased. I could never really get into the full narrative. We don't have enough time to go through all the things I can talk about in terms of--
CHUCK TODD:
You're right. Because you came here--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--my interaction with the president--
CHUCK TODD:
--and chose to bring up something about Lisa ---
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
No, you-- you s-- you started--
CHUCK TODD:
--Lisa Page and Peter Strzok.
SEN.RON JOHNSON:
--the piece with something incredibly biased that-- I-- I would never be able to get the truth out.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator, I-- I-- I don't know why you just came on here to personally attack the press and avoid answering questions--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
Be-- because of your setup piece--
CHUCK TODD:
--about what's happened here.
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
Because of your setup piece.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator, it's pretty clear-- we're only dealing with the facts that we have, not the facts--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
No, that-- that-- that's what I wanna--
CHUCK TODD:
--that you wish them to be.
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--deal with and I can't get the answers. And I can't get the answers. The American people can't get the answers. Something pretty fishy happened during the 2016 campaign. And in the transition, the early-- the early part of the Trump presidency, and we still don't know. Robert Mueller was--
CHUCK TODD:
We do know the answer.
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--completely blinded and he-- he'd never--
CHUCK TODD:
You-- you're choosing--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--he never looked into any of that.
CHUCK TODD:
--you're choosing not to--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
And he should've.
CHUCK TODD:
You're--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
Ho-- hopefully--
CHUCK TODD:
--you're just making a choice--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--hopefully, William Barr will.
CHUCK TODD:
You're ch-- you're making a choice--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
Hopefully, William Barr--
CHUCK TODD:
--not to believe--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
--will get to the bottom of this.
CHUCK TODD:
You're making a choice not to believe the investigations that have taken place, multiple--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
No, I'm-- I'm trying to get to the truth. I wanna look at the entire truth, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Does the truth--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
The media doesn't.
CHUCK TODD:
And the truth is only when it-- when it benefits-- when you believe--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
No, but that's--
CHUCK TODD:
--it politically--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
You're totally false--
CHUCK TODD:
--comfortable with you? I don't understand--
SEN.RON JOHNSON:
You're-- you're totally incorrect--
CHUCK TODD:
--what truth are you looking for--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
I want the complete truth.
CHUCK TODD:
So-- well, so are we--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
I want the complete truth.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm sorry that you chose--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
I doubt that.
CHUCK TODD:
--to come on this way, Senator. Thanks very much. Joining me now--
SEN. RON JOHNSON:
I'm-- I'm sorry you started the piece that way.
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