MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: "President Trump suffers defeat."

Interview

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MADDOW: Members of Congress reacting to the testimony today from the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine. If nothing else, her testimony today appears from the outside to have been thorough. She emerged from that closed-door deposition today after nine plus hours. She didn`t get out until 7:40 p.m. Eastern Time. Joining us now is Congressman Tom Malinowski who attended this deposition today. Before his election to Congress last year, he serves as an assistant secretary of state, the culmination of a long career in both the State Department and the National Security Council. Sir, thank you so much for making time tonight. I know it`s been a long day.

REP. TOM MALINOWSKI (D-NJ): Thank you so much.

MADDOW: I was struck by what Congressman Heck there said about how it was eight hours that went like a New York second, that he seemed -- he seemed moved by the testimony. How would you describe the testimony today?

MALINOWKSI: I agree you know we spent nine hours with a diplomat, a patriot of tremendous courage and integrity, who answered questions honestly, thoroughly and who set an example today that not only should you obey a legally binding subpoena, but you can. You can be a career civil servant or foreign service officer. And despite the president`s efforts to deny you the opportunity, to compel you to not testify to Congress, you can.

MADDOW: Do you believe that she`s at risk of retaliation or firing within the State Department because of her today to obey this subpoena? I know that the State Department reportedly on orders from the White House told her not to come when she got the subpoena. She did. Are you worried for her career, for her future?

MALINOWSKI: She better not be at risk. What she did was to follow the rule of law and she set an example for everybody else in doing so. And, you know, Secretary Pompeo has a decision to make. Right now, he is showing that he either will not or perhaps cannot defend his employees, his institution. And if he can`t defend his employees and institution, he has no business being where he is.

MADDOW: After your career at the State Department, sir, including serving as assistant secretary of state, I wanted to talk to you tonight if I could get you in part for reaction to the news that Mr. McKinley at the State Department has resigned essentially in protest of Secretary Pompeo`s inability to stand up for career foreign service officers and other people who have been caught up in this, including Ambassador Yovanovitch. Obviously, that struck me as an important resignation. The kind of thing we have not seen very often during this administration for all of its controversies. What was your reaction to that?

MALINOWSKI: Well, he is -- he`s someone I know and worked with when he was ambassador to Afghanistan. He is a model career public servant. I haven`t spoken to him but this is a widespread concern in the State Department, that the secretary either will not or cannot defend them. And you know, it`s not just about defending our employees. It`s about defending our interests. Every single person at the State Department, up to and including Secretary Pompeo, is living under the tweet of Damocles. They can`t do anything. They can`t say anything for fear that the next morning, there will be some something from the president that undercuts them. And so, they are frozen, they are paralyzed. And, you know, we`re seeing it play out in the in the Turkey-Syria situation. We`re seeing it play out when perhaps even the secretary wanted to defend Ambassador Yovanovitch but felt that the next day Trump could tweet out, you know, throwing her under the bus and him under the bus. You cannot run our diplomacy in this way.

MADDOW: Do you believe that Secretary of State Pompeo is himself at risk of impeachment because of the way that he has been involved in this scheme, that the president is being impeached for now and because of his behavior since?

MALINOWSKI: Look, I think his behavior is shameful. I don`t think we are out to impeach the Trump administration. We are looking at the conduct of the president of the United States. He is responsible for everything that we are talking about today and it is our highest constitutional duty to hold him responsible, because there is no other institution that can do so.

MADDOW: Democratic Congressman Tom Malinowski, a veteran of State Department and the National Security Council -- sir, thanks for making time. I appreciate it.

MALINOWSKI: Thank you.

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