CNN "State of the Union" - Transcript: Interview with Sen. Mitt Romney

Interview

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TAPPER: Hello. I'm Jake Tapper in Washington, where the state of our union is surprised.

The first Republican in Congress has now said that President Trump's conduct meets the threshold for impeachment.

In a long Twitter thread on Saturday, Republican Congressman Justin Amash of Michigan released his principal conclusions after reading the redacted Mueller report. And he accuses Attorney General Bill Barr of misrepresenting the information.

And he states -- quote -- "Contrary to Barr's portrayal, Mueller's report reveals that President Trump engaged in specific actions and a pattern of behavior that meet the threshold for impeachment," specifically -- quote -- "multiple examples of conduct satisfying all the elements of obstruction of justice."

The Republican congressman also takes a swipe at his colleagues, saying: "Few members of Congress even read Mueller's report. Their minds were made up based on partisan affiliation."

This is, of course, just one Republican, one who has a history of bucking the Trump administration, especially on constitutional issues. But the move is significant because he is the first to break with his party on the issue. And his announcement officially makes impeachment calls on the Hill bipartisan.

Republicans are already falling -- firing back.

The chairwoman of the Republican National Committee, Ronna McDaniel, said Saturday night -- quote -- "It's sad to see Congressman Amash parroting the Democrats' talking points on Russia" -- unquote.

Here with me to discuss this and much more is Republican Senator Mitt Romney of Utah. He is also the former Republican nominee for president in 2012.

Senator Romney, always good to see you. Thanks so much for joining us.

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): Thanks, Jake. Good to be with you.

TAPPER: So, we have a lot of foreign policy that I know you want to discuss and I want to discuss as well.

But this is the first time you have appeared on a Sunday show since the Mueller report was released.

And you said at the time in a statement -- quote -- "I'm sickened at the extent and pervasiveness of dishonesty and misdirection by individuals in the highest office of the land, including the president. I am also appalled that, among other things, fellow citizens working in a campaign for president welcomed help from Russia."

You and Congressman Amash are the only two elected Republicans, I think, to express any misgivings about the behavior of the president or his campaign team based on the Mueller report. First of all, are you surprised that you two are the only ones that have really said anything condemning of the president's behavior as laid out?

ROMNEY: Well, I think every individual has to make their own judgment.

I think it helps to actually have read the entire document. It's a long document. It took me two full days to get through it. And the second volume is a more difficult one to get through than the first. So, hopefully, more people read it.

But I think there are a lot of people that want to reserve judgment until this has all played out. My own view is that Justin Amash has reached a different conclusion than I have. I respect him. I think it's a courageous statement.

But I believe that to make a case for obstruction of justice, you just don't have the elements that are evidenced in this document. And I also believe that an impeachment call is not only something that relates to the law, but also considers practicality and politics.

And the American people just aren't there. And I think those that are considering impeachment have to look also at the jury, which would be the Senate. The Senate is certainly not there either.

TAPPER: So, you disagree with the call for impeachment. You don't think this necessarily rises to the level of impeachable offenses.

You -- so, you don't think that there's evidence in there, sufficient evidence, that the president obstructed justice?

ROMNEY: I just don't think that there is the full element that you need to prove an obstruction of justice case. I don't think a prosecutor would actually look at this and say, OK, we have here all the elements that would get this to a conviction.

So, everyone reaches their own conclusion. As I read the report, I was troubled by it. It was very disappointing, for a number of reasons. But it did not suggest to me that this was time to call for impeachment.

[09:05:07]

TAPPER: Do you think it's evidence that the president has disgraced the office of the presidency?

ROMNEY: Well, I think a number of the things that were done were really, really troubling and unfortunate and distressing.

Clearly, the number of times that there were items of dishonesty, misleading the American public and the media, those are things that really you would not want to see from the highest office in the land.

TAPPER: But not necessarily an abuse of power?

ROMNEY: Well, abuse of power is going to be at a whole different level, which suggests an impeachment. I -- I don't think impeachment is the right way to go.

I think, in part -- one of the things that is difficult in order to make a case for obstruction of justice or impeachment is whether or not there was intent. And when there's not an underlying crime, I think it's difficult to put together an effective case to prosecute for those crimes.

TAPPER: You personally are somebody who has conducted himself according to a certain set of religious and ethical and moral principles throughout your life.

I know you -- you think about this and you talk about this. You have written about it. Do you think that the president has failed, based on what's in the Mueller report, as a moral leader? If not engaging in criminal conduct, is there is -- is there a moral lacking there?

ROMNEY: Well, I have -- through op-eds and through the things I have said, I have made it very, very clear that I will support the president on policies where we agree. I will disagree with him openly if there's something that I think is wrong for the country or for my state.

But I think he could substantially improve his game when it comes to helping shape the character of the country. I think young people, as well as people around the world, look at the president of the United States and say, does he exhibit the kind of qualities that we would want to emulate?

And those are qualities of humility, of honesty, integrity. And those are things where I think there's been some call where the president has distanced himself from some of the best qualities of the human character.

TAPPER: Let's turn to some of the policy issues.

Right now, there are escalating tensions between the U.S. and Iran. The U.S. claims to have images showing Iranian freighters it believes are moving missiles. Now the U.S. is moving an aircraft carrier strike group into the region.

You're on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. You have been briefed on Iran. From what you have seen, how concerned are you about the threat from Iran?

ROMNEY: Well, I think the threat is real.

And when our intelligence community looks at a series of documents that are showing aerial photographs, as well as listening to interceptions of communication between Iranians and some of their surrogates, like Hezbollah, in circumstances like that, where the intelligence community says there's a great -- greater degree of risk, out of an abundance of caution, you, of course, take people out of harm's way. And you also communicate, as the president has, that we're not going

to sit back and just watch things unfold. We're going to make sure they understand that, if they take action against our people and against our allies and against our friends, that there will be consequence, and the consequence will be far more severe than the initial action taken by Iran.

So, for me, this is -- this is pretty straightforward, and particularly after the experience of Benghazi. If you -- if you see a threat, you don't just brush it aside and say, well, most likely nothing will happen. You take it seriously and act appropriately.

TAPPER: You have said it's close to inconceivable to you that President Trump and his administration would want to go to war with Iran.

But "The New York Times" reported that the White House was reviewing a plan to send at least 120,000 troops there. The president has said, if he does do it, it would be many more.

John Bolton wrote an op-ed in 2015 titled "To Stop Iran's Bomb, Bomb Iran."

Do you think this is all just saber-rattling?

ROMNEY: I don't believe for a minute that either the president or John Bolton or, frankly, anyone else in a serious senior position of leadership in the White House has any interest in going to the Middle East and going to war.

That's just not going to happen. There's no interest in doing that, barring some kind of attack from Iran or something of that nature, which I don't think anyone anticipates. So, going to war with Iran, not going to happen.

And, look, the president made it very clear that he thinks the greatest foreign policy mistake probably in the modern age was the decision by President Bush to go into Iraq. The idea that he would follow the same path by going after Iran, a more difficult enemy, if you will, militarily, that's just not going to happen.

TAPPER: Let's turn to China.

President Trump is dialing up tariffs on Chinese exports in this trade war. Americans are already seeing some effects. Wal-Mart just announced they're going to raise some prices because of the tariffs, because of the imported Chinese goods. Farmers are struggling in individual markets.

You support the president's tough stance against China. What do you say to the American consumers and the farmers who are struggling because of these tariffs?

ROMNEY: Well, of course, the -- the cost of tariffs is borne by the American public. I mean, we're the ones that pay the tariffs. The Chinese don't write checks to the American treasury. Instead, as we buy products, we're paying for the cost of the tariff. That's real.

But it's a sacrifice I think which is essential to keep China from continuing to kill our jobs and kill our businesses and employ people. China's gotten away with murder for years, where we have looked the other way as they have cheated on foreign agreements and on the international rules of commerce.

[09:10:07]

As a result of them cheating in the way they have, they have stolen technologies, they have stolen intellectual property. And that, by the way, means they have -- they have made it harder for American businesses to compete and for us to create new jobs, good jobs.

So, the president has, I think appropriately, said, enough of this. We're going to say stop. And the tool he has is, of course, an economic tool, a tariff tool. And I think it calls for a recognition that some parts of our society are going to be more harmed than others.

Those that are particularly harmed -- and those include some farmers, whether it's pork or whether it's soybeans -- they're going to need some help to weather the storm, because the president's not backing down on this. China has got to stop cheating, in order for us to be able to trade with them on an open and fair basis.

TAPPER: Do you think it's a mistake that the president went after Mexico and Canada first with steel and aluminum tariffs, as opposed to trying to unite the world against China?

ROMNEY: Yes, I do think that was a mistake.

I think -- my own view is that we should have gone after China and Mexico, Canada, the E.U. Aluminum, steel, all those things should have been put aside until we went on a united basis of pushing back against China.

But the president has his own negotiating strategy. Perhaps it'll work out in the best at the end. The deal that he's worked out with Mexico and China is better than the current NAFTA deal. So, he's gotten some progress.

But, look, for me, all the focus ought to be on China. And I think the aluminum and steel tariffs, bad idea, auto tariffs, bad idea. Look, the only place that I want to see tariffs really pushing against a bad actor is against China.

TAPPER: I want to get your response to this new Alabama law.

President Trump just tweeted last night saying he's pro-life, but he supports exceptions for abortion bans for rape, incest, the life of the mother. Alabama's law does not do that. There are no exceptions for rape or incest.

Supporters say they're trying to bring a case to the Supreme Court that could overturn Roe vs. Wade, ultimately. Do you support the Alabama law? Do you think that this will lead to the overturning of Roe v. Wade?

ROMNEY: I don't support the Alabama law.

I believe that there ought to be exceptions. I'm pro-life, but there ought to be exceptions for rape and incest and where the life of the mother is at risk.

But, look, you're seeing laws on both sides of this argument that are in the extreme. And whether it's New York and Virginia, or whether it's Alabama and Missouri, people have gone to the -- to the wings, if you will.

I don't think that's productive. I think something much more towards the center makes a lot more sense.

TAPPER: Just -- the Virginia law, I think, was tabled. I don't think it actually became law.

But let me ask you about something else. This was very interesting. You did this week -- you broke with your party to become the only Republican to vote against Michael Truncale, a nominee for a federal district judge. He had called your former opponent of 2012, President Obama, a -- quote -- "un-American impostor." He said that in 2011.

It's a pretty rare moment when a politician these days in one party stands against the rhetoric employed against somebody else in the opposing party.

Does there need to be more of that in Washington? Were you surprised and disappointed that more of your Republican colleagues didn't join you?

ROMNEY: No, it's actually a very personal thing for me, which is, I ran against President Obama. I disagreed with him on a whole host of issues. We went after each other very aggressively.

But I completely rejected the whole idea that he was not born in the United States, that he was un-American in some way, that he was an impostor in that respect.

And so, when a judge came forward making that kind of claim in his past, that was just not something I could subscribe to. So, it wasn't a matter of his politics or right-wing, left-wing. It was, instead, this is something which I made very critical during my campaign.

As a matter of fact, during my campaign, when there was an instance when someone said that President Obama was un-American, I insisted they apologize for that and retract that statement.

So, in a setting like this, I had no choice but to say, look, I do not subscribe to this un-American charge against President Obama.

TAPPER: Lastly, sir, you just celebrated your 50th wedding anniversary in March with Ann, your wife. You wrote in Ann for president in 2016. Is she going to get your vote

again in 2020, you think?

ROMNEY: I'm not ready to make an endorsement yet, Jake. We will have to wait and see how she does.

(LAUGHTER)

TAPPER: Are you going to support the president, or do you not know yet?

ROMNEY: I have not made any decision that front. So, we will -- we will wait. This is way too early for that.

TAPPER: And you told us that Ann is doing well, and we're glad for that.

Thank you so much. Appreciate your being here.

ROMNEY: Thanks, Jake.

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