MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: Interview with Gov. John Hickenlooper

Interview

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O`DONNELL:  There are now officially 12 announced contenders for the Democratic presidential nomination.  John Hickenlooper was mayor of Denver from 2003 to 2011.  He then served as governor of Colorado from 2011 until 2018 when he reached his term limit.
 
And on Monday of this week, he became one of the contenders by officially announcing his candidacy for president.  And we are glad to have Governor Hickenlooper joining us tonight in his first interview as a contender on MSNBC here at THE LAST WORD.
 
Governor, thank you very much for joining us tonight.  Really appreciate it.
 
JOHN HICKENLOOPER, FORMER GOVERNOR OF COLORADO:  You bet.  Thank you, Lawrence.  I appreciate being on.
 
O`DONNELL:  One of the policies that I`ve implemented for my presidential candidate interviews is to discuss nothing but policy.  I don`t care what your poll numbers are.  I don`t care how much money you`ve raised this week.  I`ve read about it.  That`s not for here.
 
I want to know exactly what you would do and what you would support as president of the United States.  And so let me begin with taxation.  And the discussion that we`re -- that your party`s now engaged in on what the top tax rates should be and what the top brackets should be.  What should the top income tax bracket be?  What should the top income tax rate be?
 
HICKENLOOPER:  Well, I`m not sure I`ve got a number right off the top of my head.  That`s not something that we`ve dug down on.  But I think the process by which we get to that -- those different levels of tax rate are going to be critically important.
 
I don`t think there`s any question that what`s been going on for the last several decades that the structure of capitalism in the United States has slowly but consistently been working against the middle class and for poor people.
 
And you look at both in terms of their security and in terms of their opportunity, they`re not getting a fair shake at creating their version of the American dream.  So clearly part of the tradition of America is those that have succeeded find ways to create that opportunity for the next group, the next generation coming along, and that`s not happening.
 
O`DONNELL:  The Trump administration cut the top tax bracket -- top tax rate down to 37 percent.  That`s for individual filers at about $500,000 of income.  Under President Obama, it was up toward 39.5 percent and there`s some supplementary taxation sometimes occurs above that.  President Clinton`s rate was also the 39.5 percent.  Would you want to see that 37 percent pushed up to the Clinton/Obama rate?
 
HICKENLOOPER:  Well, I think that -- certainly, I think that`s reasonable when you look at all the necessities that we have and the places to fund, especially if you also look at the national debt.  We can`t keep spending and giving tax breaks to, you know, large corporations and the wealthy.
 
I think it`s worth taking a moment just -- and pointing out that so many different companies and corporations and enterprises are enjoying tax breaks and loopholes of all different kinds.  Maybe the first priority should be to look at how do we tighten up the entire system and then how do we make sure what we are taxing, we`re getting the maximum benefit for that?
 
One place I put out as an example is payroll taxes, right, where we`re actually penalizing small businesses from hiring new people.  Somehow we have to figure out some way to replace that money because, again, I don`t, you know, we can`t willy-nilly go around cutting taxes.  But we`re certainly in some cases taxing the small businesses and the different enterprises in a way that makes it harder for them to employ people.
 
O`DONNELL:  The -- with the top tax bracket at $500,000, that means that someone who is paying -- who has an income of $5 million or $500 million who is paying exactly the same rate as someone at $500,000.  We used to have a top tax bracket of $5 million under Franklin Roosevelt.
 
We have incomes now that are astronomical that are in effect treated exactly the same as the income of say two working physicians who are filing jointly.  Should there be higher tax brackets like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez talks about on incomes over $10 million and then incomes above that?
 
HICKENLOOPER:  Yes.  I think the question is figuring out exactly what are those appropriate levels.  This, again, the tradition in this country -- when I was a kid, the upper tax breaks were 70 percent.
 
I`m not suggesting that we go back up to those levels.  But there`s got to be a system that, again, provides that there are sufficient resources so that we have the creation of opportunity and that, you know, people that are working their way up the economic ladder have some level of security.  And we`ve lost that.
 
You think about it, you know, there are 81,000 different trade associations.  And I`ve got nothing against that.  Trade associations play a valuable role.  But almost everyone has a lobbyist.
 
Those lobbyists go to work every day, every week, every year to try and find a different benefit.  And sometimes it`s not a tax break, but some way that all the members of their association can do better relative to what they pay into government.  And over a period of time that`s pretty -- I think that becomes very damaging, that you end up watering down and filling with more and more loopholes on our tax system.
 
O`DONNELL:  Governor, can you stay with us?  Because even though I did work on tax policy in the Senate, there`s a lot of other things I`d like to talk about.  We`d like to get in a foreign policy question or two.
 
HICKENLOOPER:  Of course.
 
O`DONNELL:  OK.  We`re going to squeeze in a quick break.  We`re going to come back with Governor Hickenlooper.  Thank you, Governor.
 
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
 
O`DONNELL:  And we`re back with former Colorado Governor and Democratic presidential candidate John Hickenlooper.  And Governor, you are on the third day of your presidential campaign.  And I`m going to try to get us through a lot more issues as quickly as we can.  Your position on Medicare for all?
 
HICKENLOOPER:  You know I think that the priority is that -- I mean I believe that health care should be a right, not a privilege.  We`ve got to get to universal coverage.  There are a lot of different ways to get there.
 
In terms of Colorado, we got to almost 95 percent coverage, almost universal coverage going through the Affordable Care Act and building a really innovative way of adding on to the people that have private insurance.
 
O`DONNELL:  So do you see Medicare for all as a possible goal or is it something you would oppose?
 
HICKENLOOPER:  I think Medicare has many positive parts, but I probably would oppose Medicare for all just because there are over 150 million people, Americans who have some form of private insurance through their business, and the vast majority of them are happy with that.  I don`t see how you transition from taking something away from all those people that are already happy.
 
O`DONNELL:  What additional gun safety legislation would you support in Congress?
 
HICKENLOOPER:  Well, obviously universal background checks.  You know, when we actually got the state data for Colorado back in 2012, getting to half the gun purchases, 38 people convicted of homicide had tried to buy a gun and we stopped them.  One hundred and thirty-three people convicted of sexual assault, it was over 3,000 people convicted of violent crimes had tried to buy guns and we stopped them.
 
I think that`s going to be true in every single state.  And if we go out and do state by state by state, literally within six months through a year, I think we`d have national legislation.
 
O`DONNELL:  I have one more tax question which is not so much a tax policy question, and that is that the Democrats in the House are trying to pass a bill that requires the disclosure of 10 years of tax returns for presidential candidates.  Would you disclose 10 years as a presidential candidate?  Would you support it and make it law so that future presidential candidates have to disclose 10 years of tax returns?
 
HICKENLOOPER:  I think absolutely having transparency at every level of elected office is important.  And I believe maybe that the last two year -- last four years of my term since I haven`t been running for anything.  But before that, I went back 25, almost 30 years.
 
So I`d be happy to support making sure that everybody has to come clear on do they have conflicts of interest and what do those look like and how do we make sure that our elected officials are making decisions for the public good and not their own.
 
O`DONNELL:  And Governor, what is your position on what we now know of the green new deal?  And I just want to specify, it`s not written in legislative language.  So it`s not the same thing as something that`s actually been introduced in Congress as legislation.  It`s more a set of goals.  But what you`ve seen of it, what is your reaction to it?
 
HICKENLOOPER:  Well, you`re right.  It`s a resolution.  And I think what I really believe, and I agree completely with the urgency that we see in the new green deal, it is the time right now that we can`t rely on incremental progress.
 
You know, I`ve got a Masters in Geology.  I think I`m the only geologist, professional geologist that`s ever been a governor.  And I look at how far we have to go and how quickly.
 
And a lot of the stuff that we`ve done in Colorado where we got the oil and gas industry to sit down with the environmental community and we got the only comprehensive methane regulations in the country.  We`ve got to get methane regulations all over the world.  Fast.  We`ve got to build international relationships to get that done.
 
And the green new deal is that opportunity to really look at, you know, how can we get as fast we can get there.  Some people criticize the universal working part of it.  But I mean we`re at three percent or four percent unemployment.  I mean we`ve got almost everybody working already.  So that`s not as big an issue as some people make it out to be.
 
O`DONNELL:  And Governor, on the Iran Deal that President Trump has pulled the United States out of, would you restore American participation in the Iran deal that was negotiated by the Obama administration?
 
HICKENLOOPER:  Well, I think at this point you kind of create fractures in the deal.  I think it`s only prudent to look at ways to improve it.  And again, I haven`t seen all the details of what are the give and takes.
 
But we`d be foolish just to go back and sign it if we can see that there`s a better way of doing it.  That being said, to go backwards on deals that we have negotiated painfully and worked with our allies to create these, you know, really meaningful alliances I think is, you know, over the long term more destructive than constructive.
 
O`DONNELL:  Governor John Hickenlooper, thank you very much for joining us tonight.  We really appreciate it.  We hope you come back as your positions on the issues solidify, as the debate intensifies.  We`re going to want to hear more from you.  Thank you very much, Governor.
 
HICKENLOOPER:  You bet.  Thank you, Lawrence.
 
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