MSNBC "Hardball" - Transcript: Interview with Rep. Ted Deutch

Interview

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KORNACKI: Berman was never reinstalled because he was recused by senior  Justice Department officials from the case.

President Trump`s outreach, if proven true, could contradict Whitaker`s  sworn testimony and possibly lead to a perjury charge. It could also help  bolster inquiries into whether the president tried to obstruct  investigations in the Southern District of New York.

President Trump has denied the allegations.

And just moments ago, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Jerry  Nadler from New York, announced that Whitaker has agreed to come back to  the committee to clarify his comments.

For more, I`m joined by Democratic Congressman Ted Deutch from Florida. He  sits on the Judiciary Committee.

Congressman, thank you for joining us.

REP. TED DEUTCH (D), FLORIDA: Thanks.

KORNACKI: On this reporting from "The Wall Street Journal," is that  accurate? Do you, does your committee believe that it has evidence that  Whitaker committed perjury in his testimony?

DEUTCH: Well, Steve, thanks for having me.

That`s exactly why it`s so important for the former acting attorney general  to come back. This responsibility of our committee to conduct thorough  oversight, including probes of obstruction of justice, requires us to bring  him back and ask him about these allegations.

This story about the president telling him, asking him whether he might be  able to cause the U.S. attorney to unrecuse himself, so that he gets more  favorable treatment, that, together with the questions about the testimony  that he did offer about the time that he interviewed for the job, whether  they knew his positions on the Mueller report, whether the president lashed  out at him after the Cohen guilty plea, all of these things require him to  come back.

And we take this responsibility of doing our oversight seriously. I`m glad  he`s coming back. And you bet he`s going to face some tough questions.

KORNACKI: OK.

You have got some confusion. You have got him coming back. You say you  want to clarify things. You have got a bunch of questions. But, again,  that idea -- that story that says you believe you have evidence of  obstruction -- excuse me -- of perjury, is that accurate?

Do you think there`s evidence right now, from what you have heard, of  perjury?

DEUTCH: Well, if you -- if you look at some of the responses that he gave,  the responses to Mr. Cicilline, the responses that he gave to Ms. Lofgren  and her questions about when he interviewed for the job that ultimately  went to Ty Cobb, clearly, it appears that he brought up some of these  issues in his conversations.

If you go back and look, he was very careful with the way that he responded  to the questions in front of our committee. It`s really important for us  to be able to probe to make sure that he wasn`t attempting to get around  the truth by trying to add additional language and additional statements to  confuse us.

That`s -- again, Steve, that`s why he has to come back, so that we can  pursue all of these issues with him directly to get to the truth and to get  further into the issue of whether or not the president of the United States  obstructed justice in this case.

KORNACKI: Yes, I mean, is that perjury, if somebody comes before your  committee and gives the answers that are, technically speaking, true, if  you just write the sentence out, you can`t actually find a false statement  in the sentence, and yet it is sort of, in spirit, misleading?

Is that perjury?

DEUTCH: It`s perjury when a witness comes to the United States Congress  and lies under oath. And that`s exactly what we`re going to be asking him  about.

KORNACKI: In terms of the question you also raised there of the president  committing of obstruction of justice, again, the president denying what was  reported by "The New York Times," but "The New York Times" saying that he  at least made some kind of inquiry there about getting this perceived ally  back in control of the -- of the Cohen investigation, the fact that didn`t  actually happen, the president makes the inquiry, doesn`t actually get this  guy installed, does that -- does that hinder the ability to make an  obstruction case?

DEUTCH: Well, it wouldn`t.

The idea behind obstruction of justice is, what was the intent of the  person who engaged in the behavior? And if the intent of the president was  to get favorable treatment from someone that he viewed as an ally, then  that would be a problem.

That`s -- again, that`s why we want to talk to the former acting attorney  general. It`s also why we need to -- why we need to move forward quickly  on hearings on obstruction of justice and whether the president violated  the oath of office, whether the president abused his power.

There is so much evidence that was left ignored during the prior two years,  that we have to now conduct our oversight. That`s the job of our  committee. And we take it very seriously.

KORNACKI: Another hat you wear there in Congress is chairman of the Ethics  Committee there in the House.
Tonight, one of your colleagues -- we were talking about this earlier --  Matt Gaetz put that tweet out where he launched those unsubstantiated  allegations against Michael Cohen. A lot of outcry you`re hearing about  that already.

Is that something, is that tweet, is what Congressman Gaetz is saying there  on Twitter, is that something the Ethics Committee might at all be  interested in, in some way?

DEUTCH: Well, Steve, first of all, I would start by reminding your viewers  that federal law protects witnesses from the intimidation and attempted  intimidation by others.

With respect to the Ethics Committee, as chair, I can`t talk about what  matters may come before the committee. But what that tweet reminded me of  was what my colleague did just earlier today, when he downplayed the  importance of the revelations about the potential sexual abuse of kids  being held in detention facilities.

It also reminded me, frankly, of his behavior a couple weeks ago, when he  tried to get two of my constituents, parents, fathers whose kids were  gunned down at a high school in my district, thrown out of the hearing  room. This is the type of behavior that we`re talking about.

And it`s, unfortunately, been fairly consistent.

KORNACKI: And you mentioned this too as well there.

Earlier today, the House Judiciary Committee did have a hearing on the  Trump administration`s policy of forcibly separating immigrant families  seeking asylum. Ahead of that hearing, the Department of Health and Human  Services released documents showing that, over the past four years, roughly  5,000 migrant children held in U.S. detention facilities have claimed they  were sexually assaulted while in custody.

Documents also show an increase in allegations of assault after the  implementation of the zero tolerance policy.

Congressman, you were alluding to this a minute ago. What exact failure  does this point to, in your view?

DEUTCH: Well, we`re just starting to wrap our heads around what happened  here.

We received this information from HHS in response to an inquiry. It was  buried in some other documents. The fact that there were thousands of  allegations, including over 150 just in the past three years of allegations  of sexual assault by adults against migrant children in these detention  facilities, this is -- this -- the reporting on this is horrific.

We have to understand what it is that they were thinking at the time they  moved forward on the zero tolerance policy. They knew there was a problem.  They knew -- they knew going back years, when there was a policy  implemented to try to detect and prevent sexual abuse in these facilities.

And what we tried to figure out at this hearing today is, who knew about  it? Did the secretary know? Before they started ripping kids away from  their parents, did he know that they would rip them away, traumatize these  kids, and then put them in these facilities, where they were at risk of  being sexually assaulted?

There are more questions than answers today. But we intend to get to the  bottom of it. It`s a black mark on the administration, and the American  people need to understand exactly what happened here.

KORNACKI: Ted Deutch, Congressman from Florida, thank you for taking a few  minutes.

DEUTCH: Thanks, Steve. I appreciate it.

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