CNN Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer - Transcript

SHOW: CNN LATE EDITION WITH WOLF BLITZER 12:00

HEADLINE: Interview With Paul Bremer; Interview With Ahmad Chalabi; Interview With Kenneth Starr

GUESTS: Paul Bremer, Ahmad Chalabi, Joseph Biden, Chuck Hagel, Benjamin Netanyahu, Yasser Abed Rabbo, Lawrence Eagleburger, Samuel Berger, Terence Taylor, Robert Gallucci, Charles Ogletree, Kenneth Starr, Peter Beinart, Stephen Hayes, Jonah Goldberg, Donna Brazile

BYLINE: Wolf Blitzer, Nic Robertson, Matthew Chance, Dana Bash, Jerrold Kessel, Jeff Flock, Bruce Morton

HIGHLIGHT:
Paul Bremer discusses reconstruction efforts under way in Iraq. Then, Ahmad Chalabi discusses the security situation in Iraq. Finally, Judge Kenneth Starr talks about the Supreme Court.

BODY:
BLITZER: Welcome back to LATE EDITION. I'm joined now by two key members of the United States Senate Foreign Relations Committee. They're just back from a personal visit to Iraq. In Wilmington, Delaware, is Senator Joe Biden, the committee's top Democrat; in Omaha, Nebraska, Republic Senator Chuck Hagel.

Senators, welcome back to LATE EDITION.

Senator Biden, let me begin with you. Is it as chaotic inside Iraq as it would appear to be, based on so many of the reports we're getting?

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: It's not quite as chaotic. There are parts of Iraq, for example, the north is in pretty good shape; the south is in better shape. It's that triangle around Baghdad that's, I think, in bad shape.

And there are certain things that are just obvious. One, we started late. Two, the administration proceeded on three faulty assumptions about what they were going to find. And three, we need more help there now. There's a need to show progress quickly. And I think it involves a need to internationalize this and to get police on the ground and more forces in there from the international community.

BLITZER: All right. We're going to get to pursue that. But, Senator Hagel, there was an editorial picking up on that in USA Today earlier in the week, on Thursday, that said this: "Clearly, military planners failed to anticipate the need to quickly replace soldiers with experienced U.S. civilians who could establish security, form a rudimentary system of justice and provide basic jobs."

Was there a failure?

SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: Well, I don't believe that the administration planned very well at all for a post-Saddam Iraq. But we are where we are. We must now move forward.

The fact is that Ambassador Bremer and his team -- and they are all first-class, first-rate people -- have an awesome task in front of them. It is going to require, just as Joe Biden said and Chairman Lugar observed as well, an internationalization of this, bringing help in as quickly as we can. We need to bring some legitimacy to the American effort here. That's more United Nations involvement and more Arab involvement. But this is an awesome task. We've never ever tried to do anything quite like this. And you, of course, in your interview with Ambassador Bremer, covered a lot of what has to be done. We must not fail here. We cannot fail. We have too much at stake here: the Middle East peace process, Afghanistan, Iraq -- all, in fact, are very much connected and very much in the long-term interests of the United States.

BLITZER: When you say, Senator Hagel, that we need to bring legitimacy to this process, are you suggesting that the U.S. operation, the coalition operation now, is not legitimate?

HAGEL: No, it is what is perceived by the Iraqis, by the Middle East, by Muslims around the world as to whether our intentions are legitimate. That means our purpose, which we Americans in the West, I think most of us understand what it is, that is, to develop a nation of democratic institutions and free markets, allow the Iraqis to govern themselves.

But what we must understand is that that intention and purpose isn't translated the same across Iraq. Therefore, to bring other people, other nations, the United Nations, into this and the other Arab world representatives into this -- not only to help us, but to legitimize the effort -- is very, very critical here.

Because what we are dealing with there, as dangerous as it is -- and it will get more dangerous, and we are in for a long-term commitment here. We cannot do this without the people of Iraq helping us, without them being part of the process to get us and get them where we all believe they want to be eventually.

BLITZER: Senator Biden, since May 1st, when the president was aboard the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln declaring major combat operations in Iraq over -- I'll put it up on the screen -- the casualties involving U.S. troops: 63 Americans killed, roughly one a day, 23 in hostile fire, 40 in other incidents -- noncombat, as it is called -- six British soldiers killed last week.

Why would other forces, NATO troops or international forces, want to get themselves involved in what is clearly a dangerous situation?

BIDEN: Well, Wolf, I believe they'd want to get involved because, as the French foreign minister said to me last year, this is our front yard. Meaning, that if we don't get it right in Iraq, it is going to have significant repercussions for all of Europe and all of the Middle East. They don't want to get involved in it in the sense of looking forward to it, but they are prepared to get involved.

And it seems to me we have to get above this ideological, sort of, notion that we're not going to let anybody else come in there and help us. I know there's effort to get the Indians and the Bangladeshis in, and that's important. But we really have to get NATO into this and get them invested in this.

And, you know, what Chuck said, I mean, Chuck and I agree on this almost down the line. What he said about legitimacy -- one of the ways to demonstrate that we're not there as an occupying power is if every uniform they see is not an American uniform. Imagine if there were 30,000 to 60,000 French, German, NATO forces in there with their patches on their sleeves.

If there is more of a visible presence of de Mello, who is the U.N. representative, then that makes it clear that we're not the only game in town.

We'd still be in control. We have to be in control till we get this thing get set up. But there's a urgent need here to convince the Iraqi people that we are in it for their interests, not just our own interests, and that's one of the many ways we can do it.

But we ought to also be talking, I think, to the Iraqi people. The idea that we're only up on the air four hours a day on television when I was in Iraq, and our staff is still back in Iraq speaking with them today from Baghdad, indicate that the Iraqis view that sort of as Saddam television. We should be having Iraqi speakers and Iraqi nationals on the air talking about what's actually going on, how Saddam or the remnants of his regime is sabotaging their ability to get water, their ability to get energy, their ability to get electricity.

There's not quite the same sense of urgency, I think, is required.

BLITZER: The fact is, though, Senator Hagel, the Bush administration seems reluctant to let the U.N. have some sort of significant formal presence, militarily, peacekeeping force. NATO is perhaps another matter.

Do you have any reason to believe, Senator Hagel, your fellow Republicans in the White House, over at the Pentagon, are ready for the kind of internationalization of this presence that you're advocating?

HAGEL: Well, I think the forces of reality are going to eventually set in, if they haven't already, to make those who have been reluctant to bring the U.N. in, NATO in and others, a reality. In fact, that's going to happen. That must happen.

And the more dangerous this becomes, the more casualties we take, the more difficulties we have in rebuilding Iraq, the more sabotage we see, then I think this reality is going to be the jarring gong that, in fact, is going to open this up to the French, the Germans and others.

We don't have a lot of time here. Time is not on our side. Every day that ticks by, we're losing ground. And, yes, it is immense. Yes, it is complicated, the task. All the more reason we need help. We can't continue to stretch our troops, our forces as we are stretching.

But the fact is, this is a big, complicated dynamic that we're dealing with. It is larger than just a force structure and a military and even an intelligence operation.

And I'm also -- on that point, Wolf, I was a little amused at the comment, the quote you read from the Wall Street Journal about Chalabi, about the State Department and the CIA freezing Chalabi out. Somebody should remind the Wall Street Journal that the State Department and the CIA is not in charge in Iraq. The Defense Department is in charge in Iraq, so if there's any freezing out of anybody, they better go talk to Secretary Rumsfeld.

BLITZER: Well, what about that, Senator Biden? Chalabi, you sense the frustration in his comments. Should he be frozen out? Is he the guy who could help the United States bring some sort of stability to Iraq?

BIDEN: He can be of some help, but it's got to come from within. And one of the things that I did see -- by the way, I agree with Chuck. We have a first-rate team there. Bremer is good. We have two ambassadors there, and a Secretary Slocombe over there from the Defense Department.

These guys know what they need. They have to establish order immediately. They've been telling us -- we went out to the police academy. These are people, our guys, with incredible experience from Kosovo, from Bosnia, from Afghanistan. They've learned. They say, we need 5,800 European trained police officers now on the ground securing order while we train up an Iraqi police force. We need more Iraq -- we need more forces total on the ground.

For example, the guys we left behind in Baghdad, they're in a particular neighborhood. They said they haven't seen -- and this is not a criticism of our military, which is spread so thin -- they haven't seen any presence of the military in the neighborhood in which they're staying. The point is, we need more now.

BLITZER: Senator Biden, unfortunately we are all out of time. But a quick question just to get you on the record. Earlier today you suggested you're leaving open the possibility of running for president, maybe making an announcement later on in the fall. Tell us precisely where your head is at on this issue right now.

BIDEN: Same where it was back in the fall and in the spring. And that is, I'll make a decision in the fall, this fall, whether I'm running or not running.

BLITZER: And you want to give us a hint? Are you inclined to run or inclined not to run?

BIDEN: I'll make the decision then.

BLITZER: All right.

BIDEN: Thank you.

BLITZER: You don't want to give us a hint, which is your right.

Senator Biden, thanks very much for joining us. Senator Hagel, good to have both of you back safe and sound from Iraq.

HAGEL: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Thanks for joining us.

BIDEN: Thanks for having us.

HAGEL: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Thank you.

And coming up, President Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, is in the Middle East, part of the president's effort to try to jump-start the peace process. What are the next steps for both sides? We'll talk with the Israeli finance minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and the Palestinian information minister, Yasser Abed Rabbo.

LATE EDITION will be right back.