NBC News " The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: Vote To Replace State Flag

Interview

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STATE REP. TODD RUTHERFORD (D), SOUTH CAROLINA: Thanks for having
me, Rachel.

MADDOW: Let me ask you about your feelings about what happened today
in your state. Did you ever think this would happen and how do you feel
about having been part of this today?

RUTHERFORD: No, I don`t think anybody ever saw this coming, at least
not now, at least not this soon. But I hate that it happened on the eve of
this tragedy and I hate the tragedy is what made this happen.

You know, the governor, we applaud her efforts. We know that it
wouldn`t happen without her. We applaud all these conservatives and their
sea change in deciding something that has been hateful for years now, all
of a sudden, they see it as hateful and want to take it down.

MADDOW: You know, one of the things that I wondered today is if
there have been conservatives, if there have been Republicans sort of
operating behind the scenes who have been maybe pushing for this to happen
in a long way and if this is an opportunity, or if you really feel like
this was spontaneous, that this was just something that was going to be
inevitable simply because of the shock to the state for what happened last
week.

RUTHERFORD: You know, we will certainly take it however we can get
it. However, when you see Reince Priebus there, it certainly gives you the
indication that maybe this was -- they were tired of the Republican
presidential candidates dancing around nine people getting killed over this
hateful symbol and whether it ought to come down. Every single time they
had to answer a question, every single candidate that answered it stumbled
over it and simply looked silly on a national stage, rather than saying the
flag is a hateful symbol and should have come down a long time ago.

MADDOW: In the past in South Carolina, there have been obviously big
fights about this issue. There have previously been very high level
efforts to try to get the flag down at the state capitol. Do -- is it
clear to you that it will work this time? What actually has to happen in
order for this to really come down?

RUTHERFORD: You know, it is clear to me that this time it is going
to work. I met with House leaders over the past several days and it`s
clear that in the House at least, we`re going to have the votes to change
the agreement, which is the agreement that we`re operating under right now
and bring a bill to the forefront that will take the flag down.

Once that bill gets to the Senate, there are one or two people that
could hold it up, but I don`t know that they will have enough votes to stop
it all together. So, for the first time literally, in my 44 years, it`s
clear that this flag is going to come down.

MADDOW: Do you think that there will be not so much a backlash but
do you think there will be a dug-in effort to defend it? Obviously, this
seems like more of a consensus issue that`s it ever been, but presumably,
there will be forces in South Carolina that fight to keep it up there.

RUTHERFORD: There absolutely will be forces that fight to keep it up
there. This has been used as a symbol to divide South Carolina for, again,
since 1962, as you stated earlier.

In 2007, I put in a bill to take the flag down. It didn`t even get a
hearing. But I think right now, a lot of those power brokers, a lot of
people in that state house that`s behind me have decided that Senator
Pinckney who is our colleague, has been our colleague for over 20 years and
most peaceful man in that whole body, he was killed for simply being black
and that enough is enough. And that flag needs to go.

MADDOW: South Carolina State Representative Todd Rutherford, the top
Democrat in the South Carolina legislature -- sir, thanks for your time
tonight. I know this has been a heck of a day. Thank you for being here.

RUTHERFORD: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

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