NBC News " Hardball" - Transcript: Kaptur On Free Trade
Interview
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REP. MARCY KAPTUR (D), OHIO: Free trade is a battle for the
communities that I represent and the people and companies that reside
there. I have supported the Jordanian agreement. I felt it was a stronger
measure.
But I basically believe in our Constitution, which says that the
Congress, not the executive branch, shall have the power to regulate
commerce with foreign nations. It doesn`t say rubber stamp agreements that
the executive branch negotiates, and it doesn`t say you can`t amend.
Congress has to be able to fix what`s wrong with these agreements.
And frankly, Chris, in my area and the whole country, since these so-
called free trade agreements have been signed and rushed through Congress
under the fast track procedure, our country has lost net 47,500,000 jobs,
among them over 5 million manufacturing jobs. The American people have
lived these year after year after year of trade deficit. An accumulation
of $9.5 trillion in the last 35 years...
MATTHEWS: Right. OK. Right.
KAPTUR: ... equals lost jobs coast to coast net.
MATTHEWS: OK, so you`re saying we have fewer people working today
than we did before we started the free trading agreements.
KAPTUR: I`m saying -- well, the population`s increased.
MATTHEWS: Because you said we`ve lost -- we`ve lost 47 million jobs.
Do we have more jobs now...
KAPTUR: That is correct.
MATTHEWS: Do we have 47 million less jobs than we had then? No. So
what do you mean by that number?
KAPTUR: By that number, I mean those are jobs that could have been
created here. Such as last year, we lost 16 percent of our GDP, our
economic growth, because again last year, we had a massive $500 billion
trade deficit. So if you look at what`s happened year after year, we`ve
never had balanced trade accounts. And that translates into lost jobs
inside the borders of this country and the outsourcing of companies from
this nation to others.
MATTHEWS: OK.
KAPTUR: Look at Huffy bicycle.
MATTHEWS: OK...
KAPTUR: Look at Maytag. Look at what`s happened to...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: I know what happened to Maytag. I`m very aware of
particular industries, and that`s always -- David, that`s always the best
argument against free trade, a point defense kind of thing. If you look in
particular areas -- Michigan City (ph), a lot of the Midwestern cities have
nothing less than a Blockbuster and a diner left, if they have the diner,
and if they have the Blockbuster. They`re hollowed-out cities.
So when you look at trade that way, city by city, section by section,
it`s a hard fight. If you look at the whole country and you look at the
Silicon Valley or 128 in Massachusetts, areas of the country which have
boomed through high tech and other means, it looks pretty good. How`s it
balance out to you?
DAVID AXELROD, SENIOR NBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, look, first of
all, I have great sympathy for Congresswoman Kaptur`s position representing
her area because there have been big economic changes not just because of
trade, but partly because of trade, and they have felt the brunt of it. I
live in the Midwest, Chris, so I`ve seen what you`re talking about.
But what`s at issue right now is this trade promotion authority,
whether this president`s going to have the same authority that every
president but Richard Nixon has had since Franklin Roosevelt, every
Democratic president.
And now they`ve negotiated an agreement that has standards on labor
rights and environmental rights and human rights and gives -- there`s a
fail-safe provision that allows the Congress to take that fast track
authority back if those standards aren`t met.
So it seems to me, you know, there`s an argument here that you should
let this president have at least that much authority, given the fact that
these provisions have been put in this -- in this -- and we do have -- we
do have an issue because, we -- you know, Asia is a -- is a rising market,
a huge market, and you know, will America -- American businesses and jobs
benefit or lose result of this agreement?
I think the president`s going to have to make that case, and I think
that`s what will begin next week.
MATTHEWS: Let`s take a look at what Elizabeth Warren has to say
because she`s the firebrand in the party on this and other issues. Big
labor, of course, is with her. They staged a dramatic rally on Capitol
Hill just yesterday against the president`s trade deal. It`s called the
TPP. They also railed against the authority the president that wants to
get the bill through.
Let`s watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: We`re here today to fight.
We are here to fight. Are you ready to fight?
(YES!)
WARREN: Are you ready to fight!
(YES!)
WARREN: All right! No more secret trade deals! Are you ready to
fight?
(YES!)
WARREN: No more secret deals! No more special deals for multi-
national corporations! Are you ready to fight?
(YES!)
WARREN: Are you ready to fight any more deals that say we`re going to
help the rich get richer and leave everyone else behind? Are you ready to
fight that?
(YES!)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m here today to say not no to fast track, but
hell no to fast track! We are standing together to open up one gigantic
pan (ph) of whup-ass on anybody, on anybody that tries to take our jobs!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, others in the Democratic Party are fighting back
against Senator Warren. Democratic senator Ron Wyden of Oregon is throwing
his weight behind legislation supporting the president`s fast track
authority, saying it would make, quote, "historic strides in transparency,
labor, environmental, human rights and open Internet standards."
And President Obama today reiterated his goals for a deal. Quote, "My
top priority in any trade negotiation is expanding opportunity for hard-
working Americans. This deal would level the playing field, give our
workers a fair shot, and for the first time include strong, fully
enforceable protections for workers` rights, the environment and a free and
open market."
Congresswoman, this issue -- why is the American economy so darned
strong if our trade policies have been bad? I mean, what is working in
America? Why does it...
KAPTUR: Well, actually...
MATTHEWS: Why do we have the booming GDP of the world that everyone
wants to move here to live, everybody in the world wants to get in the
United States, legally or not. And you say there`s something fundamentally
wrong with our economic policies. Which is it?
KAPTUR: Well, if you look at the middle class, Chris, if you look at
what`s happened to people`s incomes for the majority of people in our
country, they`re going down. The average worker has taken a terrible pay
cut over the last 20 years.
And I heard what Mr. Axelrod said about Asia, and so forth. We were
promised with the Korean free trade agreement, which I opposed, that we
would have trade surpluses and more jobs in our country. Exactly the
reverse. We`ve had over 75,000 lost jobs now already in our country
because of that Korean deal, and it`s only three years old.
So there`s something wrong with the fundamental trade agreement when
you haven`t had a trade balance in over three decades. That means lost
jobs in this country.
And it isn`t just my part of the country. It`s coast to coast. It`s
furniture jobs. It`s textile jobs. It`s agricultural jobs. It`s, yes,
industrial jobs. It`s home appliances. It`s everywhere in the country.
And people`s incomes are going down. The numbers prove it.
MATTHEWS: OK. OK. Let me go to -- let me go to David now. I want
to go back to you with the same question. David, if you go to the average
department store in the United States, or any kind of store, you`ve got
tremendous options.
I mean, I grew up where you had a couple pairs of pants from South
Carolina or somewhere that were made from different kinds of fibers, and
they weren`t that great. Now you go to any store you want, everything`s
cotton, 100 percent cotton. There`s already -- the pants already have
their -- their -- what do you call it, the cuffs on them in your size.
There`s so much consumer opportunity in any big store in the United States.
The consumers do want free trade, I think. They seem to want anything
they can get their hands at the best possible price and the best possible
quality in the world. They don`t want to be told they can only buy stuff
made in a nearby state. Now, if you go back to protectionism, that`s where
you`d be, where we grew up, where you couldn`t buy stuff from all around
the world.
I don`t know. It`s a tough call.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: It`s such a tough call.
KAPTUR: That isn`t the choice...
(CROSSTALK)
KAPTUR: ... not closed markets.
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