Senator Webb at Armed Services Hearing: "We are clearly involved in regime change" in Libya

During a Senate Committee on Armed Services hearing, Senator Jim Webb today called for broad Congressional debate over the implications of "regime change" in Libya. For weeks Senator Webb has raised concerns that the Libya mission lacks clarity and that the United States does not have a clear grasp of the dynamics on the ground.

Earlier today on MSNBC's Andrea Mitchell Reports, Senator Webb said, "We need to understand clearly what it is that we are going to attempt to do if there is a stalemate or if the regime is overthrown."

A transcript of today's Armed Services hearing is below:

Armed Services Hearing Transcript

Senator Jim Webb: Gentlemen, I have great respect for both of you and for the way you have handled this military situation and this dilemma for the past several weeks. I appreciate all that you have had to do today, too, in your earlier testimony.

I would like to follow up on one thing that Senator Wicker just said as an introductory comment. It seems to me and I think everybody else that we are clearly involved in regime change in this issue and in the evolution, at the same time, of a very unpredictable political scenario. This isn't a military question--you're implementing a policy decision--but it is definitely a diplomatic reality.

We, at the same time, do not know who the opposition is or what they will do if and when--and it is probably when--Gadhafi leaves. So the situation that we're facing and its implications are much more complex than the way that they are often characterized over here. When you have a sustained operation, I think we all have to agree that this is something more than a rebellion. I do not know how we would characterize it. I am not sure that we could call it a civil war, but we are arming one side as a result of these decisions.

I think we need to start looking very hard into the immediate future. I do not know whether there is going to be a stalemate. Secretary Gates, you answered this question in a way that I would agree--that at some point, there will probably be an implosion inside Libya that will cause a government change. We are going to have a period where either we are going to see a stalemate or Gadhafi is going to fall. The question for us is how we prepare for that period and what we believe the American policy ought to be. I think we can assume that either way, there are going to be reprisals and there are going to be calls for international involvement in Libya in order to sort these things out.

My bottom line here, Mr. Chairman, is to support what you said before, that whether or not we are going to invoke the War Powers Act, we need to have a process where we have a discussion about the implications of what is going on right now, looking down the road so we can have some sort of debate and understanding here in the government writ large, rather simply than having to follow the prerogatives of the Administration on this issue.

Secretary Gates, how would you characterize this rebellion? How should we look at it? Is it a civil war?

Defense Secretary Robert Gates: I think it represents a fairly broad-based uprising against an oppressive government. The number of cities and towns in which there were uprisings and people taking it upon themselves to confront the security services and the military, I think, makes it more of a broad uprising against the government than it does a civil war. Civil war would imply that there are two established governments or entities that have some kind of structure and that are in conflict for power.

The best I can tell from most of these uprisings is that the principle agenda was getting rid of the government that they have got. I think one of the challenges that we are all going to face when Gadhafi falls is, as you suggest, what comes later, and I think we shouldn't exaggerate our ability to influence that outcome. The tribes will have a big influence, whether the military splits or the military turns on Gadhafi--there are a number of alternative outcomes here only one of which is some sort of proto-Democracy that moves toward a protection of rights, and so I think we have to be realistic about that.

Webb: I could not agree with you more. What makes the decision-making in this so difficult is that the only thing we know and that everybody seems to agree with is that we think this one individual needs to go. At the same time, it is going to be an enormous challenge, to use your terminology, not only for this country and for our vital interests in the region. It is going to be a challenge to see what follows on that, knowing the history of the region and the traditions of reprisals, whether Gadhafi is gone or not, and the way that we may be drawn in during the aftermath.

Again, Mr. Chairman, I hope we can have a proper kind of discussion here in Congress on the implications of what we are doing. At the same time, I want to give my upmost respect to both of you for the way that our military and our leadership in the Department of Defense have carried out their leadership as this decision was made.

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