CNBC Capital Report - transcript
SHOW: Capital Report (7:00 PM ET) - CNBC
July 12, 2004 Monday
HEADLINE: NBC Military analyst General Barry McCaffrey, Kerry campaign adviser Lieutenant General Claudia Kennedy and Republican Congressman David Dreier on president's claim America is safer than three years ago
ANCHORS: GLORIA BORGER; ALAN MURRAY
GLORIA BORGER, co-host:
Our top story tonight, President Bush fights back against powerful Senate criticism of prewar intelligence. Today the president traveled to Oak Ridge, Tennessee, and said he was right to invade Iraq despite the absence of weapons of mass destruction. Bush argued that America is safer today than it was three years ago.
President GEORGE W. BUSH: Today, because America and our coalition helped to end the violent regime of Saddam Hussein and because we are helping to raise a peaceful democracy in its place, the American people are safer.
Today, because we acted to liberate Afghanistan, a threat has been removed and the American people are safer.
Today, because Saudi Arabia has seen the danger and has joined the war on terror, the American people are safer.
Today, because we're working with the Pakistani leaders, Pakistan is an ally in the war on terror and the American people are safer.
ALAN MURRAY, co-host:
So is Bush right? Well, joining me now with more on tonight's top story, retired Army General Barry McCaffrey-he's an NBC News military analyst-retired Army Lieutenant General Claudia Kennedy-she's an adviser to the Kerry campaign-and Republican Congressman David Dreier, chairman of the powerful House Rules Committee.
Thank you, all three of you, for being here.
General McCaffrey, I'll let you have the first take at it. All things considered, is America safer today than it was three years ago?
General BARRY McCAFFREY (NBC Military Analyst; Retired, United States Military): Sure. It's almost a silly question. We're still at great risk. I'd be astonished if there wasn't an attack in the next six months, probably one that will be largely or completely thwarted. But having said that, look, we spent $40 billion, we organized a new Department of Homeland Security, the borders, for the first time in our history, halfway have some coherence. Yeah, we've made a lot of progress. We are still at risk.
MURRAY: General Kennedy, the points that the president was emphasizing are: what's happened in Afghanistan, the Taliban is gone; what's happened in Pakistan, AQ Khan is gone; what's happened in Libya, they've turned over their weapons. Do you think we're safer than we were three years ago?
Lieutenant General CLAUDIA KENNEDY (Kerry Campaign Adviser): Well, I don't think that the Taliban is gone in Afghanistan. The job is not nearly finished in Iraq, and in fact, Iraq has become a gathering place and a breeding ground for new and very committed terrorists against Western culture.
MURRAY: More terrorists than existed three years ago?
Lt. Gen. KENNEDY: It seems to me there are, but I don't really have-you know, I don't have access to the numbers that the Pentagon does.
MURRAY: So you're skeptical?
Lt. Gen. KENNEDY: I'm very skeptical. I think that, in fact, Americans feel less safe than ever before, and I think suddenly President Bush is trying to say that we're safer because we're coming up pretty close to the November elections.
MURRAY: Chairman Dreier-I can't call you General Dreier, but...
Representative DAVID DREIER (Republican, Rules Committee Chairman): I've got to agree with both generals, Alan, in part what they say, not just out of respect to both of them. But the fact of the matter is, I will give you this very specifically, General Kennedy, if you look at the fact that we have successfully killed or captured two thirds of the al-Qaeda leadership-I agree with you that Iraq has in fact been a breeding ground. We have seen this attraction of terrorist activity. Blood-thirsty thugs are in there trying to disrupt our quest towards political pluralism, free and fair elections and the kinds of human rights which we herald worldwide. So, I mean, I think both generals, Alan, have made fair points here.
MURRAY: But here's the...
Rep. DREIER: But we are safer. And I look-think about Pakistan, Alan. I mean, one of the things that I'm reminded of, this war was going on during the last administration. And I'm not going to sit around here pointing fingers at the Clinton administration. Plenty of that has taken place over the fact that they were risk-averse when it came to intelligence, the fact that there was a lack of funding for human intelligence and the fact that President Clinton rarely met with the DCI, the director of Central Intelligence. And we all know Jim Woolsey has talked about that, because he served in that role. But this president, within two weeks of taking the oath of office, stepped up to the plate and did something that the former secretary of state, Madeleine Albright, said couldn't be done. And that was he put on the line General Musharraf-with whom I met several weeks ago, as you know, and I've talked to you since then-and he said, 'You've got to make a choice, General Musharraf, between the Taliban and the United States of America and the cause of freedom,' and we're also obviously seeing great success there. And look at what's taken place in Tennessee.
MURRAY: All right.
Rep. DREIER: I mean, we have...
MURRAY: Yeah.
Rep. DREIER: ...clearly had an impact on Muammar Qaddafi.
MURRAY: Yeah. General Kennedy, do you want to respond to that before I go back to Barry McCaffrey?
Lt. Gen. KENNEDY: Yes, I would like to respond. I think that there has been a lot of work done in the last several years to say, 'What's going on in our intelligence agencies that we were so unprepared to deal with 9/11?'
Rep. DREIER: Right.
Lt. Gen. KENNEDY: And even internal to the Bush administration. There have been internal reviews led by General Scowcroft for which no response has been made by the administration. He has not followed up on those recommendations. And, furthermore, I think that it's unconscionable that anyone try to declare a hollow victory in the last moments before an election when we have not seen progress made about the security of the United States. In fact, we've become very insecure fiscally, we've become insecure physically, and I think that they need to reconcile what the homeland security director says and what the president says.
Rep. DREIER: General, no one has declared victory. I mean, General McCaffrey is absolutely right. This president is right. We still live in a dangerous world, and it was just this past week that the secretary of homeland security said we live daily with the threat, and as we head to the two party conventions, that is looming.
MURRAY: Here's the question, General McCaffrey.
Lt. Gen. KENNEDY: Well, the president said, 'Mission accomplished,' and we've had 850...
Rep. DREIER: The president never said, 'Mission accomplished.'
MURRAY: OK. Hey, guys, hang on. Let's let-there was a big banner hanging behind him...
Rep. DREIER: Yeah.
MURRAY: ...when he landed on the aircraft carrier.
Rep. DREIER: Yeah. Right. I remember that thing.
MURRAY: Let's let General McCaffrey get in on this. Here it seems to me the question that your two colleagues are debating, and that is, has Iraq simply become a place that attracted terrorists who were already operating in other parts of the world or has it created new terrorists that are a new threat?
Gen. McCAFFREY: Well, probably a little bit of both. Look, there's no question that al-Qaeda's leadership has been severely disrupted, as have many of the franchised operations. We've killed, captured, interrogated successfully a bunch of them. I think it's also quite true that I'd rather have these terrorists fighting US Marines in the 1st Armored Division in Iraq than I would on the streets of America. Having said that, the only thing I would be a little cautious about-prior to 9/11, nobody covered themselves with honor in this effort. The only people around this city that I ever saw that were serious about terrorism were Sandy Berger and George Tenet, and the rest of the Congress, the media, the military, I don't-I think it took the loss of 3,000 Americans before we got our act together.
Rep. DREIER: Well, that's going a little-I mean, my colleague Porter Goss, who's the vice chairman of the Rules Committee, I talk to him daily and I will tell you, he has been vigilant for years on this issue. And I know that there are a lot of us who've tried to follow that lead, so I will tell you, Barry, you know, I do think that there were others along with Sandy Berger and George Tenet who did have a shared commitment to the global war on terror.
MURRAY: General Kennedy, let me ask you something that General McCaffrey's comments suggested, and that is one of the things that has happened-or that hasn't happened since September 11th is another terrorist attack. I mean, surely somebody deserves credit for what hasn't happened since September 11th.
Rep. DREIER: Sure.
MURRAY: None of us sitting here on September 11th thought we'd get this far without that.
Lt. Gen. KENNEDY: Well, we should feel very good there has not been a terrorist attack. But look at the cost to our civil liberties, the cost to the dignity of every single passenger going through an airport. Yet that, in my opinion, is not where the greatest danger lies. And I think that what we really need to be doing is thinking about the enormous damage to international relationships around the world. We need to be calling upon the international community to help us...
MURRAY: Yeah.
Lt. Gen. KENNEDY: ...in Iraq, not be excluding everyone so that we can have very lucrative contracts for Halliburton.
MURRAY: Let's deal with both those issues, the civil liberties and international relations.
Rep. DREIER: Well, I'll tell you, when we see both Jordan and Yemen give an indication that they're willing to help us in Iraq right there, that's building support within the Arab world. As the president said in the remarks you just carried, Alan, Saudi Arabia, victimized with those bombings in Riyadh and other parts of Saudi Arabia, clearly on board in support of the effort. It's a broad international coalition. And, you know, Claudia, there has not been one challenge to the Patriot Act. The fact of the matter...
MURRAY: Let me get General McCaffrey in here, because you do a fair amount of traveling and you talk to people all over the world. We don't have great support for what we're doing in other parts of the world.
Gen. McCAFFREY: Well, I agree. I think our public diplomacy has been a disaster. I think, when we went into Afghanistan, not doing it as a NATO operation was a huge mistake in judgment. I think Secretary Rumsfeld's rhetoric has been extremely unhelpful. But I think we're now back on the right track. I think Secretary Powell and this wonderful new ambassador, John Negroponte, are trying to build consensus. I'd also want to counter, though, one thing. With great respect I hold for Claudia Kennedy, I don't think our domestic security has really infringed upon the rights of people. I'm grateful that the border patrol-Rob Bonner, the customs service...
MURRAY: Yeah.
Gen. McCAFFREY: ...transportation security agency, I want to see them checking us.
MURRAY: General Kennedy, most Americans, the polls suggest, agree with that, don't they?
Lt. Gen. KENNEDY: You know, I just travel a great deal and I get unduly infringed upon every time I go through an airport. I don't think I present an enormous profile as a terrorist, and yet there I am being frisked in public for absolutely no reason other than that I'm going to multiple destinations.
Rep. DREIER: And other than the fact that we are at war, and I think if you look at Professor Harvey Mansfield's very strong statement of that, this is part of the cost of being in the midst...
MURRAY: Yeah.
Rep. DREIER: ...of a global war on terror, something we've never faced before in our history.
MURRAY: All right.
Lt. Gen. KENNEDY: I think it's a very unsophisticated way to approach this, because I don't think the greatest danger is in the airports.
Rep. DREIER: Well...
MURRAY: We've got to leave it at that. General McCaffrey, General Kennedy...
Rep. DREIER: Great to be with y'all.
MURRAY: ...Chairman Dreier, thank you all for being with us.
Gen. McCAFFREY: Good to be with you, Alan.
Rep. DREIER: See y'all.
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