MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

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MATTHEWS: Let‘s go right now live to Congressman Trent Franks, who joins us. He‘s an Arizona Republican. Let me get to that question with you Congressman. Do you believe this is a, quote, "partisan stunt"? That‘s what your leader, John Boehner, said a moment or so ago on the floor.

REP. TRENT FRANKS ®, ARIZONA: Well, I guess I‘d first say, you know, there‘s an irony here that Joe Wilson is one of the most decent gentleman that we have...

MATTHEWS: OK, is it a partisan stunt...

FRANKS: ... in our House of Representatives.

MATTHEWS: Is it a stunt on the part of the Democrats?

FRANKS: And consequently, if you look at what President Obama and Nancy Pelosi said that night, that we should move on, they‘ve changed their minds. So yes, I think it‘s become a partisan stunt, and I‘m sorry to see that.

MATTHEWS: Why do you think that? How do you know the motives of the House Democrats?

FRANKS: Well, I don‘t speak to their motives. I only speak to what they‘ve said in the past. Nancy Pelosi...

MATTHEWS: You said it‘s a stunt.

FRANKS: ... and the president--yes, Nancy Pelosi and the president said it‘s time to move on, but I think that they begin to see that there might be some political advantage to this, and I think that they have pushed it into a stunt.

Joe has apologized. He knows that he did the wrong thing. And the bottom line is that, you know, there‘s--if I were a doctor, I would diagnose this as selective indignation and double standard. Harry Reid called President Bush a liar, but there‘s two differences. President Bush is a Republican, and Harry Reid has never apologized. So to somehow suggest we‘re going to be restoring the reputation of the House by this vote--we really want to restore the reputation of the House, we‘ll start voting for policies that reflect the great ideals that made America the greatest nation in the world.

MATTHEWS: I respect you for being a member. I look up to anybody who‘s been elected to the House. Somebody once criticized me, saying, I look up to all politicians because I couldn‘t get elected. Boy, finally, some blogger got it right. I do look up to you guys.

Let me ask you this question. Was the affront by Joe Wilson, your colleague, your Republican colleague, against the House or the president? It‘s critical you answer this one way or the other.

FRANKS: I truly believe...

MATTHEWS: The House or the president?

FRANKS: I truly believe that the affront was toward the president...
MATTHEWS: OK.

FRANKS: ... because he spoke to the president there. And he knows he did the wrong thing. But I have to say to you, Chris, if you examine the reality, the president‘s the first one to utter the word "lie" here, and Joe was sort of responding. It was only a minute earlier that the president had...
MATTHEWS: OK.

FRANKS: ... used that word and called a lot of us in the House really indirectly liars. And so the whole process has, indeed, been--like the president says, it‘s been coarsened, but the president has to take responsibility for his part in coarsening this debate...

MATTHEWS: Yes. He...

FRANKS: ... because (INAUDIBLE) people that disagree with him on the health care plan. I myself said something that night that didn‘t get heard. When he said that it didn‘t cover--wouldn‘t cover abortions, I said, That‘s not true. If you look on the tape, that‘s what I said. I didn‘t say it as loud as Joe did. But I think that would have been a better way to say it because Joe was just speaking for a lot of people that they feel like they‘ve just not had their voices heard. And he did it in the wrong way. He recognizes that. But now we really should get to the truth of things...
MATTHEWS: OK...

FRANKS: ... and get back to the policies that really matter to the people.

MATTHEWS: Let‘s listen to Steny Hoyer, the Republican--excuse me--the Democratic leader. Here he is making his case for this resolution. Stay tuned, Congressman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. STENY HOYER (D-MD), MAJORITY LEADER: None of us--none of us--is happy to be here considering this resolution. I know I am not. At the same time, my colleagues, what is at issue here is of importance to this House and to our country. And that issue is whether we are able to proceed with the degree of civility and decorum that our rules and our democracy contemplate and require. The House code of conduct requires that each member, every one of us--each and every one of us--conduct himself, and I‘m quoting from the rule, "at all times in a manner in which shall reflect credibly on the House of Representatives."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Congressman Franks, I‘ve been on that floor as a staffer.

It‘s a hushed moment, as you know as a member...

FRANKS: Yes.

MATTHEWS: ... when the president is in joint session. It‘s very--almost a sacramental religious experience. You‘re totally in awe of the moment that you‘re lucky enough to share or been elected to share. Do you really think that that wasn‘t an offense against the House, for a member of the House to speak against a guest of the House in public on national television in the way that Mr. Wilson did? You say that‘s just an affront...

FRANKS: I think...

MATTHEWS: ... against the person of the president.

FRANKS: If that had been Joe‘s intent...

MATTHEWS: That was a House infraction.

FRANKS: I don‘t think there was any intent on Joe‘s part to do that. I think that he let his love for country--this is a man that had three sons in Iraq at the same time. He has given his life to the service of his country, and he let his passion get the best of him. He knows he was wrong. He did it the wrong way, and he apologized to the person that he affronted. And he apologized before the whole world. And I just don‘t know...

MATTHEWS: How did he do that?

FRANKS: ... how you beat up a guy like...

MATTHEWS: I guess I missed that. OK, look, I‘m with you on this. I mean, you‘re looking out for a colleague, Congressman. I completely respect the impulse you‘re...

FRANKS: Well, but I‘m also saying what I believe...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: He did not--he called up Rahm Emanuel, the president‘s staffer, and said, I was told by the Republican leader to make this call. And then the next day, he told the press, I was told to make the call and I did. Excuse me. Do you call that--that‘s a high schooler‘s definition of an apology, My father told me to say I was sorry.

FRANKS: That‘s not how I read it at all. That‘s not how I read it at all.

MATTHEWS: Well, where did you hear the word...

FRANKS: It was a very contrite--it was a very contrite apology. The statement was very clear to everyone. He didn‘t say in any written statement or any statement that I heard about being told what to do, and I think that‘s probably what he‘s chafing against right now, being told...

MATTHEWS: He did say he was told by the leadership to make the call and he made the call. He did it in a formal way that means it had no, well, emotional or real content. And now you guys are saying he‘s apologized twice. I would like to hear the quotation on record somewhere of this apology because I don‘t think...

FRANKS: Well, it‘s there, Chris.

MATTHEWS: ... it‘s been personal. I think it‘s been formal.

FRANKS: It‘s there. It‘s there. And I have the advantage of knowing Joe Wilson, and I...

MATTHEWS: Well, you know Joe Wilson, but you don‘t have any record of him saying...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Has he ever said to you, I‘m sorry I said that?

FRANKS: Well, he hasn‘t said it to me, he said it to the president. He said it to--on record. The statement is on record. And I challenge you to go and look at that and read it to the people and see which one of us has a more accurate description of what Joe said.

MATTHEWS: Well, it was a comment made to the staffer of the president, not to the president. Let me ask you this...

FRANKS: Well, I don‘t know if...

MATTHEWS: What do you think about...

FRANKS: ... he had the cell phone of the president. You know, he called the White House. If the president would have taken the call, I‘m sure he would have been more than happy to speak directly to the president.

MATTHEWS: You know, I‘ve watched this for years and I--even when Harry Truman was down around 23 percent and was pretty much looked down on as president, I never heard anybody yell out personally to the president of the United States, You‘re a liar, in the House chamber.

FRANKS: Oh, listen, Bush lied...

MATTHEWS: I never heard anybody say that.

FRANKS: They attacked--listen, I‘ve been here about seven years now, and I never saw anybody called a liar more--more often than George Bush. And if you look back...

MATTHEWS: Where was that done?

FRANKS: ... those were things that--they may not have been during an address, but they booed him. If you‘re talking about keeping the decorum of the House, even the people that were applauding the president that night were breaking the rules. The fact is that Joe made a mistake. But I will tell you that this man‘s motivations and his heart are good and right for this country, and I wish we had about 434 more like him. I could go home and be with my babies.

MATTHEWS: OK. Well, you‘re a good colleague. Thank you for coming on. Congressman Trent Lott...

FRANKS: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: Not Trent Lott! Used to be a guy named Trent Lott! Trent Franks of Arizona, thanks.

FRANKS: Thank you, sir.

MATTHEWS: Please come back again as often as you can, sir.

FRANKS: Thank you, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Coming up: Several Republicans in Congress may be close to signing onto the Democrats‘ plan, some people believe. We‘re trying to find this out, if this is a good story or not, if it‘s hard or not or it‘s wobbly. We‘re going to find out whether it‘s developing, a possible pick-up of some Republicans for this vote for the health care among U.S. senators. We‘ll be right back with that. With most Americans saying they want bipartisanship in Washington, could President Obama get some of that bipartisanship he‘s been looking for, after all?

You‘re watching HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.

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