MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript

Interview

MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" Interview With Rep. Rush Holt

Interviewer: Rachel Maddow

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MS. MADDOW: Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Rush Holt of New Jersey. He is a member of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, chairman of the Select Intelligence Oversight Panel, and a co-sponsor of legislation in Congress that would overturn "Don't ask, don't tell."

Congressman Holt, it's really nice to see you. Thank you for joining us tonight.

REP. HOLT: Pleasure to be with you, Rachel.

MS. MADDOW: What happened to the Barack Obama who ran for president who was so against "Don't ask, don't tell"?

REP. HOLT: Well, the most important thing is what you said a moment ago. America is ready for the change, a change in this policy. It can come on a temporary basis from the White House, on a more permanent basis from Congress. One way or another, it is going to come. Clearly it's an outmoded, outdated policy based on a fallacious view of morality, and it is leaving our country less secure.

MS. MADDOW: You agree with his arguments, then. We're just still waiting for action on them, I suppose.

REP. HOLT: The action could come in several different ways.

MS. MADDOW: Yes.

REP. HOLT: And we are waiting for it, but it's going to come soon, because the public is way ahead of the policymakers on this. You know, some weeks ago you had Lieutenant Dan Choi on your program. I happened to be in the Middle East at the time, and I was with servicemen and women in Iraq and other countries. You know, their private lives, their sexual orientation, didn't come up once. You know, these are men and women doing a good job for our country, for the people back home. This is not, should not be, an issue.

MS. MADDOW: You have more than 140 co-sponsors on legislation right now to repeal "Don't ask, don't tell." As I understand it -- I spent some time tracking the bill today, and it seems like it's sort of cooling its heels in committee right now. Is there any political pressure to not move that bill, to let it just not happen now to make sure that it doesn't roll forward this summer?

REP. HOLT: I don't know of any pressure. There's the usual inertia for any change. It would be good to have, you know, a word from leadership, a word from the White House, to move it along. But I don't think there's any overt stop action --

MS. MADDOW: What's --

REP. HOLT: -- or covert stop action, for that matter.

MS. MADDOW: Politics is the art of the possible. I mean, I think that when Bill Clinton addressed this issue and started to address this issue at the very beginning of his presidency, he would not have expected that what he'd end up with is a policy that would have 13,000 members of the military kicked out by the time that we speak out. Is --

REP. HOLT: You know, and let me ask your viewers to think a moment on that -- 13,000 skilled people. In other words, we are operating now with fewer skilled, talented people than we should have, defending our country.

MS. MADDOW: And meanwhile, using stop-loss --

REP. HOLT: Thirteen thousand is a lot.

MS. MADDOW: -- using stop-loss to keep people in who would like to get out -- (laughs) -- because we need them for their skills.

REP. HOLT: Yes.

MS. MADDOW: Well, in terms of how this could be approached, is there a risk that if this were put forward this summer, with all the co-sponsors that you have, with the incredible Gallup ratings that we've got right now on this issue -- 69 percent --

REP. HOLT: Yeah, there's some argument whether it's 75 or 69 or 68.

MS. MADDOW: It's a huge majority --

REP. HOLT: It's huge.

MS. MADDOW: -- in favor either way.

REP. HOLT: That's right.

MS. MADDOW: Is there a risk that putting legislation forward now would result in some sort of political backlash in Washington that would result in the codification of some other new bad policy? Or is it really just a matter of making it better or leaving it as the status quo?

REP. HOLT: You know, I don't think there's any chance of a backlash like that because of the numbers that you just talked about. The public is way ahead on this, by large margins. You know, if it were a close call, you might worry about a backlash that would leave lingering long-term damage. I don't think so.

You know, a year ago I was sitting in the Rotunda at a memorial -- or at a recognition ceremony of Harry Truman's desegregation, racial desegregation of the military 60 years before, and thinking about the improvements that came to the military and to society from that decision. I was really struck by the parallels.

MS. MADDOW: Truman having not exactly been a civil rights crusader up until that point in his career.

REP. HOLT: And furthermore, everybody said, "This will hurt morale."

MS. MADDOW: Yeah.

REP. HOLT: "You know, this is -- we shouldn't be doing this. It will leave lingering damage." Well, it's been of great benefit to our country.

MS. MADDOW: Briefly, President Obama could issue an executive order to stop the military from investigating whether or not people are gay or to halt the dismissal process temporarily while the issue is looked into. Would you support either of those actions just to sort of stop the harm caused by the policy now while it can be considered at greater length?

REP. HOLT: Sure. Sure. But we can go farther.

MS. MADDOW: Yeah. Congressman Rush Holt of New Jersey of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, co-sponsor of H.R. 1283 to overturn "Don't ask, don't tell," it is such a pleasure to have you here. Thank you, sir.

REP. HOLT: Great to be with you.

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