NPR "Morning Edition" - Transcript

Interview

NPR "Morning Edition" - Transcript

National Public Radio "Morning Edition" Interview With Senator John Kerry (D-MA); Senator Richard Lugar (R-IN)

Subject: The Enhanced Partnership With Pakistan Act

Interviewer: Steve Inskeep

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MR. INSKEEP: We've been talking with two senators who want to send more aid to Pakistani civilians.

Democrat John Kerry has a simple goal:

SEN. KERRY: Empowering the Pakistani government itself to build a relationship with its own people.

MR. INSKEEP: Kerry chairs the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and he's working with Richard Lugar, the leading Republican voice on foreign affairs.

SEN. LUGAR: Our hopes, I believe, are that there will be money used for health and for education of many Pakistanis.

MR. INSKEEP: Both senators want to send Pakistan $7.5 billion. And President Obama agrees, though this week, senators in both parties questioned that plan. One senator asked of corrupt Pakistani officials would divert the money to banks in Switzerland. Even Pakistan's president was once called "Mr. 10 Percent" over claims that he took money.

That's where we started our discussion with Senators Kerry and Lugar:

If I were going to invest money in a company -- specifically, if I were going to buy stock -- I'd want to know that on some basic level that I trust the CEO, that the guy's not a crook, that the management team knows what they're doing.

SEN. LUGAR: On that basis, however, perhaps you would not invest in Pakistan to begin with.

And there is a gamble. In a way its an investment so that we will have somebody in Pakistan not only who likes the United States, but is prepared to work with us -- whoever the leadership may be in the next five years.

MR. INSKEEP: The bill that has your names on it has a provision that says anybody who receives more than $250,000 of funding from this bill, the name should be disclosed in most cases.

What is it you're trying to prevent there?

SEN. KERRY: We want accountability -- very simply. We want clarity as to where the money went and who's responsible for it.

Can I put this in a perspective, because I listened to some of the folks who are naysayers or are reluctant to do this? What is the option? The option, if you decide not to do anything, is to just turn it over to the Taliban, to abandon the government. It's just an unbelievably damaging message to huge parts of the world.

So our struggle here is to help a fledgling democracy be able to try to develop. That is a messy business. It has never not been messy.

MR. INSKEEP: I want to ask about the new administration and get both your views on this.

This administration has made it clear, rhetorically, they believe Pakistan is extremely important -- maybe the key to the whole situation. But are you confident, once they've made that statement, that they actually know what will work and what will succeed in Pakistan?

SEN. LUGAR: No, I'm not confident. I don't think they are either. This denotes, at least as far as I'm concerned, a very good argument -- or discussion, as the case may be -- in the administration as to how this is to proceed.

MR. INSKEEP: Senator Kerry, do you think the administration knows what will work in Pakistan?

SEN. KERRY: To a certainty? No. But I think they are hopeful that the new strategy is the best option available under some very difficult choices.

MR. INSKEEP: Let me ask about the connections between Afghanistan and Pakistan, which officials say are connected in so many ways.

And this week one of your fellow senators, Russell Feingold, was questioning Richard Holbrooke of the Obama administration.

And he said, "If you send, as you plan to, thousands more troops into Afghanistan, if they're actually effective, aren't they just going to drive the Taliban in greater numbers across the border into Pakistan and you end up with a worse situation in Pakistan, which is really the more important country?" And the answer came back: "Well, actually, yes. That could happen."

Is that an argument for being extraordinarily careful about how you escalate the war in Afghanistan?

SEN. KERRY: It's one of many arguments for why you have to be extraordinarily careful about how you do this.

I'm very much in favor of keeping as small footprint as is militarily feasible and still accomplish your goal of being able to prosecute the counterterrorism efforts against al Qaeda.

And the fact is that what we need to do -- our strategy, I believe -- needs to make the border irrelevant not try to actually enforce it. When I say make it irrelevant, it should be meaningless that they're moving back and forth. If they have a sufficient commitment to their local community and they feel as if their future is not with the Taliban and not in terror.

MR. INSKEEP: Another thing you'd have to do, I suppose, is make sure that it's just as dangerous for a Taliban fighter, no matter which side of the border.

SEN. KERRY: On either side.

MR. INSKEEP: Is it dangerous enough for the Taliban on the Pakistan side right now?

SEN. KERRY: It's not dangerous at all for the -- well, I can't say not at all. There are some dangers, obviously, because there has been some effort through the frontier corps and some other efforts that have taken place that have kept the pressure on them. But it's not the kind of thing that's going to be sustainable over a long period of time, in my judgment.

MR. INSKEEP: When you think about the American military activity, such as it is, on the Pakistan side -- and the most public thing has been these drones flying around; these Predator drones firing missiles at specific targets -- is there right now sufficient American firepower on the Pakistan side to deal with whatever enemies are found there?

SEN. LUGAR: Probably not. I would suspect this is one reason why we are in a training exercise every day of world with the Pakistanis. And I think, you know, current reports show you're even sharing some drone strategy with the Pakistanis. They're fully capable of comprehending that.

MR. INSKEEP: Would either one of you want to increase the amount of firepower that's available -- that's used in Pakistan?

SEN. KERRY: No. I speak for myself. I don't know if Dick would. But American forces, American footprint on the ground is counterproductive. It's not the way to proceed.

We have to empower the Pakistanis. They have a very good army; they have a strong army. Their army, however, is fundamentally trained to fight India and too many of them are deployed on the Indian border and Kashmir border. You have to change that.

Once the elections in India are over and completed, I believe the dynamic will shift so that there can be some redeployment on both sides and that will help the Pakistanis to begin to deal with this themselves.

SEN. LUGAR: I agree. And I think we're headed in the direction of reducing that footprint.

MR. INSKEEP: Senators Kerry and Lugar, thanks very much.

SEN. LUGAR: Thank you, sir.

SEN. KERRY: Delighted to be with you.

MR. INSKEEP: They're the leading Democrat and Republican on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

END.

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