MSNBC "HARDBALL WITH CHRIS MATTHEWS" INTERVIEW WITH SENATOR DEBBIE STABENOW
MR. MATTHEWS: The American auto industry is clamoring for a piece of the bailout, but Democrats are facing an uphill battle to get it for them. Those opposed to a bailout say money would only reward and prop up failure of the American auto industry. But no rescue package could lead to bankruptcy, and up to no bankruptcy -- actually, if you don't give them a bailout, you get a bankruptcy, and that means 3 million jobs lost.
Should Washington give billions in taxpayer dollars to the American automakers? Let's bring in Democratic U.S. Senator Debbie Stabenow of Michigan.
Senator, thank you. How do we deal with this problem of --
SEN. STABENOW: Sure.
MR. MATTHEWS: -- inefficient leadership in the auto industry all these years, the failure to be able to compete and to sell cars?
SEN. STABENOW: Well, first of all, Chris, in this economy somebody has to make something. And indirectly or directly, one out of 10 workers in this country work for the automobile industry. So this is a basic industry.
I would argue that there are so many misconceptions about where they are at this moment, because, no question, past mistakes. Currently they are rushing to the new innovation. They have so many more costs than their competitors around the world. They pay for health care. Their competitors don't. They pay for innovation. Their competitors don't.
In fact, China owns their automobile makers completely. So our companies are competing with countries. And as they move to these new vehicles to get us off of foreign oil, we now have the financial markets and the credit climate completely collapsed. People can't buy automobiles, can't get loans, and they can't get credit.
So all we're saying is give them a bridge loan to be able to allow them to get into next year. They are totally focused on the 2010 model when we're going to see major changes.
MR. MATTHEWS: Do you believe that they could pay back a loan or could support a loan guarantee, the auto industry, that somehow next year will be better than this year enough to make up for the loan? Do you believe that?
SEN. STABENOW: Chris, I do believe that things are going to get better. I think, in the short run, it's going to be tough. You know, look at AIG. They started out at $85 billion. Now it's $150 billion for an insurance company. Certainly if they can do that for an insurance company, we can do $25 billion that will help keep 3 million people working in this country.
What is missed in all of this debate about the economy is that the real fundamental is jobs. We've lost 4 million manufacturing jobs in this country. We can't afford to lose 3 million more. Watch how people can't pay their mortgage then or go into the marketplace and buy things.
You know, we've had this supply-side economy with nobody paying attention to demand. Somebody's got to work, have money in their pocket, so they can buy things in this country. And I'm so pleased that we have a president that's coming in in January who really understands that.
MR. MATTHEWS: Well, you point to the cost of health care, and that's certainly true because of the UAW contracts and the fact we don't have national health care in this country like Canada does and our competitors do. That's all true. And you have right-to-work states that can take jobs away from states like Michigan and Illinois that have labor unions, good labor organization.
Are they the reasons? Because here's the problem. Tom Friedman of The New York Times just whacked you guys. He said the blame for this travesty not only belongs to the auto executives but must be shared equally with the entire Michigan delegation in the House and Senate, virtually all of whom, year after year, voted however the Detroit automakers and unions instructed them to vote. Do you feel that you're a handmaiden or a tool of the auto industry?
SEN. STABENOW: Well, Chris, what I'm fighting for --
MR. MATTHEWS: Do you feel that you and the other members of the delegation -- that's what he's arguing, that you do what you're told to do by the auto industry and you never tell them, "How about smaller cars, lighter cars?" Talk about efficiency, but if the car weighs a huge number of tons, it doesn't matter how efficient it is; it's going to use up a lot of gas. And everybody's been sold on these SUVs like they're some sort of macho machines.
SEN. STABENOW: Well, Chris, first of all, let me say, I'm not going to say there's not been mistakes in the past. We all know that. But here's what we also know. This is an industry that is racing like crazy to the new energy-efficient automobiles. The CAFE standards have been raised. We put in place the ability for them to get retooling loans to be able to build these new vehicles. And then what happens? The economy collapses in terms of the credit markets.
So we're at a point where, just as with all of the other businesses -- I mean, I'm amazed. It's okay to talk about banks, giving them money when they start buying up other banks rather than giving out loans to people. It's okay to talk about AIG. But when we talk about a small fraction of that to be able to keep manufacturing in this country, 3 million jobs -- and I should also say, it's not just autos. It affects aerospace, defense. How are we going to build those tanks, make that equipment that we need to defend ourselves around the world? It's all related to manufacturing.
And if we don't get back on track and have a focus on advanced manufacturing, the next generation of manufacturing in this country, I believe we're going to continue to lose the middle class of this country. And I think it's just as fundamental as that.
MR. MATTHEWS: I completely agree with you. I think this country was built on being able to come out of high school and get a semi- skilled job and support a family. And if you can't do that, we're not going to have a healthy society. I agree completely.
The question is, are bailouts the root -- have they worked in the past? Is your confidence justified that in a year or so the industry will have turned the corner, given the economy we're in right now? Can they sell to people that don't have money to buy? You know, those are the questions we don't know the answer to, do we?
SEN. STABENOW: Well, and you know what, Chris? The reality is this is a bridge loan, contrary to what's happening with other industries. This is a loan. And secondly, you're right; we have to open up credit so people can buy automobiles. I'm not saying this isn't complicated. Of course it is, and it's all interconnected. But I do know this. In the global economy, we've had no manufacturing strategy in this country. We have not put in place those things that will help our auto industry be competitive.
When South Korea can sell 700,000 automobiles into America last year, and, because of trade barriers, we can only get 6,300 into them, there's something wrong. And we'd better pay attention to the larger question of supporting them. Do they have a role? Absolutely. Do they need to be paying attention to innovation and moving aggressively? Absolutely. And they are. UAW, new contracts go from $28 an hour to $14 an hour. UAW is assuming retiree health care costs.
So what's happening is what people want to have happen in the industry is happening. It's just that there's not an awareness that it's happening. And if we don't pay attention and understand, I'm afraid we're going to see a deeper, deeper hole in this country because we're not going to have good-paying jobs.
MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, thank you very much, Senator Debbie Stabenow of Michigan. Thanks for joining us.
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