CBS "Face The Nation"
MR. SCHIEFFER: Today on "Face the Nation," Clinton versus Obama, no more Ms. Nice Lady -- she now says Senator Obama should be ashamed of himself -- and John McCain's roller-coaster week.
Senator Hillary Clinton's campaign is on the ropes as Barack Obama has racked up 10 wins in a row. But she's not done yet.
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY): (From videotape.) Shame on you, Barack Obama!
MR. SCHIEFFER: Is this the beginning of a nasty, final lap in the campaign? We'll ask Obama supporter Governor Janet Napolitano of Arizona and Clinton supporter Governor Jennifer Granholm of Michigan.
Then we'll talk about Senator McCain's week, after The New York Times article came out implying he is too close to lobbyists. We'll talk with senior adviser Charlie Black. Jim VandeHei of Politico will wrap up the rest of the week's political news, and I'll have a final word on journalism's newest full-time columnist Fidel Castro. But first, the last lap of the Democratic race on "Face the Nation."
MR. SCHIEFFER: And good morning, again. Joining us, Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano and Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm.
Governors, welcome. I know you're both in town for the National Governors Conference. We appreciate you stopping by. We want to talk politics here this morning and what a difference a couple of days make.
I want to play a couple of tapes here. At last week's debate, Hillary Rodham Clinton was putting it this way.
SEN. CLINTON: (From videotape.) No matter what happens in this contest -- and I am honored, I am honored to be here with Barack Obama. I am absolutely honored. (Applause.)
MR. SCHIEFFER: But that was then. Yesterday she said Senator Obama has been misrepresenting her positions on NAFTA and on health care, and here's what she said yesterday.
SEN. CLINTON: (From videotape.) This is the kind of attack that not only undermines core Democratic values but gives aid and comfort to the very special interests and their allies in the Republican Party who are against doing what we want to do for America. So shame on you, Barack Obama! It is time you ran a campaign consistent with your messages in public.
MR. SCHIEFFER: Well, Governor Granholm, that's your candidate. You're supporting Hillary Clinton. What came over her there?
GOV. GRANHOLM: I think she rightly feels so strongly about these two issues that those flyers touched on, health care and trade, that she felt she had to come out strongly in Ohio. I mean, and I'm the governor of Michigan, and Michigan is very similar to Ohio in that we've lost so many manufacturing jobs. And we blame so much of that on a failure of the Bush administration to enforce trade agreements and making sure that we don't enter into anymore that give away the store. And health care is the other reason. And again, she was standing there with Governor Strickland. In Ohio and in Michigan, the cost of health care, not just for individuals but for businesses, has made us uncompetitive. Last year, there were more cars built in Ontario than in Michigan for the first time in history, and they weren't going there because of taxes or wages. They were going there because of health care. So when flyers come out that misrepresent her position on these two fundamental issues, I'm sure she is going to be very passionate about it, and I think rightly so.
MR. SCHIEFFER: Well, Governor Napolitano, you are supporting Governor Obama. Do you think that he misrepresented her positions?
GOV. NAPOLITANO: No. The flyers use her own words. But more than that, that was the sound of frustration to me. These are flyers that are several weeks old. Why the timing was yesterday is peculiar and perhaps tactical. Who can say? But it's been a long year. It's been a very difficult few months for her. Obviously the momentum is with Barack Obama now, people are listening to his message. People understand what a great leader he can be, and the votes are following that reality. And so I heard in that tone of voice and in her selection of words just real frustration.
GOV. GRANHOLM: Well, actually, one of the newspapers had actually retracted the quotes that were in the flyer about her position on trade. But I think that it is true that we really are fortunate as Democrats to have really two tremendous candidates who are similar in many ways on issues. But on the issue of health care -- and I think this was something that was really important is, you know, her and his position are different. And in states like Ohio and Michigan, this is a really fundamental difference, because our jobs have left, because our job providers are competing with countries that provide health care, and we don't.
GOV. NAPOLITANO: The difference is this cult issue of mandates. And what Senator Clinton has never been able to explain is how would, a, you get a mandate passed through the Congress so you can actually move health care legislation through and how you would really enforce it. And when that question was asked, she really doesn't have an answer that she wants to articulate right now, because to enforce a mandate is making people do something they do not want to do. Obama has a different view on health care to make it so affordable and accessible that people will want to get into the system. And to me, a, it's something that can actually move through a Congress that will still be divided by party and something that will actually have more national acceptance.
MR. SCHIEFFER: All right. Let me just shift a little bit here. Governor Granholm, when Michigan and Florida moved up their primaries to January, the Democratic National Committee penalized them, and they said that those delegates wouldn't be counted. None of the delegates would be counted in Michigan. Well now it looks like those delegates might turn out to be crucial. Are you going to back Senator Clinton when she tries to get the committee to count those delegates if it does go to the convention?
GOV. GRANHOLM: We had a primary in Michigan where we had record turnout, 600,000 people voted.
MR. SCHIEFFER: Yes, but the other candidates' names weren't even on the ballot.
GOV. GRANHOLM: But they pulled their names off the ballot, she did not. They didn't have to pull their names off the ballot. It was sort of an extra, you know, not only are we not going to campaign in Michigan but we're really going to show you that we don't care about showing Michigan the deference. She kept her name on the ballot.
The bottom line is, though, on this Michigan moved up its primary when New Hampshire moved up its primary. We said that we would abide by the rules if everybody else abided by the rules. When New Hampshire jumped the calendar, Michigan -- and we had decided this a year ago -- said that we would as well, because we don't believe it's fair that a state like Iowa and New Hampshire alone get to have such a disproportionate impact on who gets to be our president.
MR. SCHIEFFER: But you would risk a fight at the convention over that?
GOV. GRANHOLM: I don't think we'll have a fight at the convention. I think there's a great desire to see Michigan and Florida -- I mean, you know, every president in the past couple of times has been selected by Florida.
MR. SCHIEFFER: Do you think it will be settled before then?
GOV. GRANHOLM: Nobody wants to alienate the voters of Michigan and Florida. It will be settled before then.
MR. SCHIEFFER: Do you think so?
GOV. NAPOLITANO: Well, I think Senator Obama, you know -- Michigan and Florida are important states. That being said, the rules were the rules. Everybody agreed to the rules ahead of time. Yes, New Hampshire moved up, but a lot of us could have then moved up our primaries in response to that and didn't. We abided by the rules. So there is that argument to be made. But it's academic because two things. One is I do think this will be resolved before the convention. And two is I think both Senator Obama and Senator Clinton hold Florida and Michigan to be very important states come the general election. And this is not, at this point, about the nomination. It's about coming together for November.
MR. SCHIEFFER: Let me ask you about another controversy, and that is you are both superdelegates because you are governors just like members of Congress are superdelegates. You can vote for whoever you want to.
That's going to be easy for you, I would think, Governor Granholm, because you're for Hillary Clinton. You say that she did win in Michigan, and in fact she did.
But out there in Arizona, Hillary Clinton won that, but you're for Obama. Do you feel compelled, Governor, to vote as your constituents voted?
GOV. NAPOLITANO: Well, my constituents knew right before the primary that I was going to be with Obama, so there's no surprise there. And we actually end up as a divided state, and the superdelegates will divide as well, and I will stick with Obama.
MR. SCHIEFFER: You will stick, and you're not worried about that.
Let me just show you what former Governor Doug Wilder of Virginia said if it comes down to the superdelegates going against the number of delegates that these candidates had going into the convention. Listen to what he said.
DOUG WILDER, FORMER GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA, CURRENT MAYOR OF RICHMOND, VIRGINIA: (From videotape.) If the majority of the American people who are participating in these processes, either through caucuses or through primaries, have a majority of those votes going for either of the candidates and if the superdelegates intervene and get in the way of it and say oh, no, we are going to determine what's best, there will be chaos at the convention! It does nothing to help the Democrats. And if you think 1968 was bad, you watch 2008, it will be worse.
MR. SCHIEFFER: What about that, Governor?
GOV. NAPOLITANO: Well, I think an Obama vote as a superdelegate will be consistent with the national voters going in to Denver, will be consistent with the majority of primaries and caucuses. So it will not turn the convention. But I suspect, and I think both Governor Granholm and I agree, this will probably in all likelihood be resolved before August.
MR. SCHIEFFER: What if Hillary Clinton loses Ohio and Texas or just loses one? It will be a very steep hill for her to climb to get the nomination after that.
Do you think, Governor, as one of her supporters that she should think about withdrawing to keep the party together and try to build some unity?
GOV. GRANHOLM: I think let's wait and see what happens.
MR. SCHIEFFER: What does that mean?
GOV. GRANHOLM: I think we should see what happens. Clearly, it will be -- I mean, it's an uphill battle when you are losing the pledge delegates. So we need to see what happens. You know, they feel very good about what they're seeing in Texas and in Ohio. But you know, we'll see what happens.
MR. SCHIEFFER: What about Ralph Nader announcing this morning he's going to run? Do you think that hurts Democrats, Governor?
GOV. NAPOLITANO: I think it's a non-event. These are primaries and caucuses that have excited the national interest, brought thousands and thousands of new voters in. They've been participating in the Democratic side state by state by state. They're not looking for a third-party candidate like a rehash of Ralph Nader. They're invested in this race.
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