ABC "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" - Transcript
Interview
SEN. SMITH: (From videotape, June 21, 2006) As I have studied history, I have never found an instance whereby victory is won by announcing retreat.
SEN. SMITH: (From videotape, December 7, 2006) I for one am tired of paying the price, ten or more of our troops dying a day. So let's cut and run, or cut and walk, but let us fight the war on terror more intelligently than we have.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Gordon Smith, Thursday night in the Senate. He joins us now live, along with the incoming chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Joe Biden. And Senator Smith, let me begin with you.
That was clearly a deeply personal speech and it showed a dramatic change of heart. What triggered it?
SEN. SMITH: Waking up the other morning and turning on the news and hearing that yet another ten of our soldiers died the same way that several thousands have --
STEPHANOPOULOS: Wednesday.
SEN. SMITH: Wednesday -- through roadside bombs. And I went from steam to boil. And I felt I had to speak out because if we're going to be there, let's win. If we're not, let's at least fight the war on terror in a way that makes sense.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You said in that speech the current policy may be criminal.
SEN. SMITH: I said it. And you can use any adjective you want, George, but I have long believed in a military context when you do the same thing over and over again without a clear strategy for victory at the expense of your young people in arms, that is dereliction. That is deeply immoral.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You also say the Baker Commission report is a "recipe for retreat." So what are you for?
SEN. SMITH: I am for fighting the war on terror against Jihadists. When you get to being policemen in a sectarian civil war, that is not what the American people enlisted for. That's not what I voted for. I voted for toppling a chief terrorist and tyrant, ridding him of weapons of mass destruction. But not for being target practice in the middle of a sectarian strife that we see where tens, hundreds of bodies a day are pulled out of the Tigris River, Sunnis and Shiias who are butchering each other really over the question of who has the right to be the successor to Mohammed.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You think it's time to leave?
SEN. SMITH: I believe that we have an ongoing interest in the war on terror and Iraq is one of the battlefields, but I believe we need to reposition ourselves in a way that allows us to take on the murderers and the weapons of war that come across the borders of Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Ultimately, we want the Iraqis to make the political decisions that will ultimately allow a government to emerge.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Biden, this seems like a watershed moment.
SEN. BIDEN: It is. Look, George, two incredible things happened. One, the election on November 7, two, the Baker Commission. My friend here, and others, in the Republican Party, as well as Democratic Party, and what they're saying when you cut through it all, either figure out how we're going to have traded a dictator for stability, or leave. And that's a gigantic shift. Everyone, from John McCain, who says it a different way, to Joe Biden, to across the board is saying we have one last shot to figure out how to deal with the chaos in Iraq. If we can't, you better get out. And my view is, if you can't deal with the chaos, and I have a formula how I would propose doing that. It's not apart from the study group's recommendations. But if you can't you better disengage and contain.
STEPHANOPOULOS: The study group actually explicitly rejected Senator McCain's proposal for massive infusions of troops and took aim at a proposal like what you have called for. You want a federal system with more autonomy for the different regions. And Secretary Baker had this to say about that.
JAMES BAKER (Iraq Study Group): (From videotape.) As a practical matter, such devolution, in our view, could not be managed on an orderly basis. And because Iraq's major cities are peopled by a mixture of warring groups, a disorderly devolution would likely result in a humanitarian disaster or a broad-based civil war.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Your response?
SEN. BIDEN: He's right, but he misrepresents my position. The Iraqi constitution calls for a decentralized federal government. That's there words. Article 1 -- decentralize the federal government. Number two, they've already voted in the legislature, George, eight weeks ago, to put in what they call the "implementing legislation" to provide for federalism, what their constitution calls for.
The Iraqis are already walking down that road. Secondly, the only other positive thing that is happening in Iraq, and would argue it's because of the Baker Commission report, is the Sunnis and Shiia and the Kurds, according to The New York Times have agreed now on an outline for the distribution of oil revenues. Now, they're not finished yet. But if they do --
STEPHANOPOULOS: We've been close before, haven't we?
SEN. BIDEN: Well, not this close, because they've never before openly stated, all three, that they acknowledge that it has to be distributed and has to be a way to deal with it. And you know, you have the Kurds in the north now arguing not whether it's distributed equally based on population, but who gets to decide which contracts are going to be let. But no argument any more about the profits being distributed to the Sunnis, as well as -- who have no oil -- counting the Sunnis in.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Smith, your rhetoric does echo Senator McCain's in some respect. Do you think, as a practical matter, a major infusion of troops now is still possible or are we really talking about disengagement?
SEN. SMITH: Well, listen, first of all, you have to answer should we be in the middle of an insurgency that is not ours? But if you answer that question "yes," then Senator McCain is right. The way you fight an insurgency is to clear, hold, and build.
What I have seen with my own eyes on several occasions is that we clear and we retreat and the insurgents come back in.
STEPHANOPOULOS: That's what Prime Minister Blair was saying, as well.
SEN. SMITH: That is just fundamentally wrong. And I'm tired of being told things are changing and continuing to see casualties through the same --
STEPHANOPOULOS: But then, you're basic position, then, is that we do have to start to pull out. If I'm hearing you correctly, you're saying we're caught in the middle of a civil war, it doesn't appear we can solve it, we have to get out.
SEN. SMITH: Their civil war is theirs to answer their essentially political questions so that they can construct their country. We continue to have an interest, I believe, and a presence on the near horizon in order to continue to prosecute the larger war on terror. And I'm all for training, I'm all for logistics, I'm all for sharing intelligence. And even interdiction. But at the end of the day, I cannot in good conscience any longer support a policy which is essentially "let's hit them and then let's run back to the Green zone."
STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Biden, the Iraqis also seem to be reluctant to embrace the Baker-Hamilton Commission. I want to show you what President Talibani said this morning about it.
PRESIDENT OF IRAQ JALAL TALABANI: I think that the Baker- Hamilton is not fair, is not just. And it contains some very dangerous articles which are undermining the sovereignty of Iraq and the constitution.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Does this mean the report's a dead letter?
SEN. BIDEN: No, it means the report is "move this whole thing, man." Think about this. You don't hear anybody --
STEPHANOPOULOS: But he says it's dangerous.
SEN. BIDEN: Oh, he says it's dangerous, but what reason he says it's dangerous is it calls for the embed of significant amounts of American forces indefinitely in every single Iraqi unit, which means he's saying that means we, the Iraqis, will not control our own military. That's what he's talking about. And also, I know him fairly well, I've met with him a number of times both in Iraq and outside of Iraq, and this is a guy who, I think, is really still focused on Kirkuk. It also says --
STEPHANOPOULOS: He's a Kurd, in the north.
SEN. BIDEN: He's a Kurd, and Kirkuk is the city where the oil is and that's the city that Saddam, as you know as well as I do, Arabized, he moved a lot of people up there and displaced Kurds. Now, the Kurds are coming back and want to displace those Arabs that are there. And the report calls for, no, no, no, a referendum, no referendum on Kirkuk, and, you know, so this --
STEPHANOPOULOS: The Kurds don't want that.
SEN. BIDEN: No, the Kurds don't want that. So you've got to read between the lines what's up here. But going back to the central premise here. No one, no one, no one but the president and the vice president is talking about "if" we're going to draw down American troops. Everyone is talking about "how and when." That is a fundamental shift since November 6th.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You've been a strong supporter of the president. Do you think he has the capacity or is prepared to announce a major shift in strategy or are we going to see more of the same?
SEN. SMITH: I know President Bush very well. I know he agonizes over this issue day and night. And it pains me to say what I'm saying right now because he's more than my president, he's my friend. But having said that, I believe he has spent way too much political capital following a strategy that ultimately has been designed for victory and ultimately must change. And now is the time for leaders to speak out. The Iraqi Study Group at least gives us a chance, a vehicle around which to come together as Republicans and Democrats that the American people can support. But having said that, count me as doubtful about many of its suggestions.
I don't know whether the president can put forward now a policy that will ultimately lead us to victory. And if we are not there to win, then let's admit it and let's reposition in a way that's more intelligent in fighting the broader war on terror.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You met with the president Wednesday. What did you hear?
SEN. BIDEN: I don't believe he has the capacity to change because, in fairness to him, he has a fundamental view, George, and he concluded our meeting by saying, "I believe in freedom and liberty, universal principles, everyone agrees to the same principles." My comment was Sistani's view of liberty is different than our view of liberty. He has this wholesome, but naive view that Western notions of liberty are easily transposed to that area of the world. As long as he thinks the Iraqis are about ready to jump up and embrace our notion of liberty, democracy, my comment to the president in the past is, "Mr. President, democracy is more than an election. It requires fundamental compromise. And if you believe you're compromising your liberty, if you conclude that you should move in one direction, then your notion of liberty is different of liberty than my notion of liberty."
I think the president, God love him, as my mother would say, thinks there is a Thomas Jefferson or a Madison behind every sand dune waiting to jump up. And there are none.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Smith, when I was reading your speech on Friday morning, I thought immediately of your predecessors in Oregon, Wayne Morris, the only senator to vote against the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution; Mark Hatfield, senator from Oregon, was one of the leaders in stopping funding for the war in Vietnam. Were you conscious of their example?
SEN. SMITH: I remember every day that I sit in the seat of Mark Hatfield and there are a view more historic Oregonians. I do believe Mark Hatfield, like the American people, are willing to sacrifice for America's defense, for our interests, our values, and our friends. But I also believe Mark Hatfield and myself do not support policies, nor should the American people support policies that lead us down a path to defeat. And I believe that that's what we've been pursuing and I believe that must change and it's time for leaders to stand up, anybody, Joe, myself, I was speaking in this speech as much about accountability as anything. We're going to be accountable to the American people. They own this government. The American people are not quitters, but they're not fools, either. And they will not long follow a strategy that leads to defeat.
SEN. BIDEN: Look, George, this is, as I said to the president when he asked me a while ago, if every Jihadi, every terrorist in all of Iraq was eliminated, the Lord came down and sat in the middle of this table and said, "They're all gone," we still have a major war in Iraq that has nothing to do with terror.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Biden, Senator Smith, thank you both very much.
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