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NBC "Meet the Press" -Transcript

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NBC "Meet the Press" -Transcript

MR. RUSSERT: Our issues this Sunday -- the president restates his belief in the war.

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: (From videotape.) We must help Iraq defeat those who threaten its future.

MR. RUSSERT: And he calls for an enduring relationship with Iraq that would keep American forces there "beyond my presidency." What now? With us, decorated Vietnam veteran, 2004 Democratic presidential nominee, Senator John Kerry; and decorated Vietnam veteran, 2008 Republican presidential candidate, Senator John McCain. Kerry and McCain square off, a debate -- should we leave or should we stay?

Then -- the very latest on the 2008 race for the White House. Insights and analysis from Chris Cillizza of WashingtonPost.com and Chuck Todd, political director of NBC News.

But first the debate over the war in Iraq -- front and center across the country, in our nation's capital yesterday, as antiwar protestors and counter-demonstrations were held. The debate is also front-and-center this morning right here on "Meet the Press." We are joined by two men who have seen war, who feel they should be president, and who have very strong but different views on the way forward in Iraq.

With us, Democrat John Kerry, Republican John McCain. Welcome both.

SEN. McCAIN: Good morning.

MR. RUSSERT: Let me start with you, Senator McCain. What should be the U.S. strategy in Iraq for the next year?

SEN. McCAIN: The U.S. strategy in Iraq should be to defeat al Qaeda, to do everything we can to reverse the increasing influence of Iran in Iraq, and to achieve or move towards the goal of military security and a functioning government.

MR. RUSSERT: General Petraeus was in Washington, and he testified, and he agreed that in order to do that, we will lose, on the average, two U.S. men and women per day; 15 will be wounded or injured per day at a cost of $300 million per day. Is it worth it?

SEN. McCAIN: Well, General Petraeus's answer was pretty much the same as mine. All of us are saddened and frustrated by the course of this war. It was very badly mismanaged by the former secretary of Defense and this administration. I, late in 2003, said this strategy is doomed to failure; that we had to fix it; that we had to adopt the strategy that we have now adopted, and it is not succeeding.

Are we heartbroken at the loss and sacrifice of these brave young Americans? Of course. But the point is that now we are succeeding with this strategy, and that's the opinion of most observers, and abandon it and either go back to the previous failed strategy, which some Democrats want to do, or set a date for pullout, and indicate we're leaving the neighborhood then there is no doubt in my mind of the consequences, and that will be genocide, chaos in the region, and far worse than the situation we have today, which I believe can succeed given sufficient time.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Kerry, your response.

SEN. KERRY: Well, the Bush-McCain strategy of escalating our troops in the middle of a civil war has no relationship directly to what you need to do to resolve the civil war. So you can put additional troops in and secure a small area here or there, but everybody knows there are not enough troops to be able to secure all of the areas you need to secure and, most importantly, it does absolutely nothing to resolve the fundamental differences, Tim.

A policy of putting more troops in and staying is a policy for staying. It is not a policy for winning or for changing the equation. And the fact is that over the last four and a half years, they've had ample opportunity to make any of the fundamental political decisions that really don't relate to security. An oil revenue law does not take security to be passed. A de-Baathification law does not take security to be passed; it takes political will. They have been shown the political will; we have to change the fundamental equation and create leverage in our relationship.

A second major point -- This is making us weaker in the war on terror, it is emboldening Iran, empowering Iran, empowering Hamas, empowering Hezbollah. The United States has lost leverage in the region, we need a better policy, and there is a better one.

MR. RUSSERT: Which is?

SEN. KERRY: The better policy is to re-establish that leverage; is to make it clear to the Iraqis that we are leaving over a period of time; that we're --

MR. RUSSERT: How long?

SEN. KERRY: Over the year -- that is what all of us have said -- 52 votes, a majority of the United States Senate has voted to do that, and Republicans are obstructing our ability to be able to change the policy of the war. The fact is that we have no leverage.

If the president says, "A year from now we're going to have 130,000 troops there," and we're going to go back to where we were almost a year ago when the country almost fell apart, that is not putting pressure on the Iraqis.

MR. RUSSERT: A phased withdrawal over the course of the next year?

SEN. McCAIN: It depends on the situation on the ground. In all due respect to the comments that John just made, you would think that we have pursued the same strategy for the last four years or so. The fact is we have changed that strategy, albeit way too late, and in Anbar Province, parts of Baghdad, the Kurdish areas, there are areas of a secure environment. There is significant political progress on the ground in the local environment. I am convinced that the Maliki government, if they are told we are leaving, they have to stay in the neighborhood, and they will adjust to conditions in the neighborhood -- that's making deals with al Qaeda and others.

The consequences of a set date for withdrawal, in the view of many who oppose us going into the war in the first place, General Skowcroft, General Zinni, others, would be, including the piece by Dr. Kissinger in this morning's Washington Post, all agree that setting a date for withdrawal would cause us to have severe national security problems in the future. General Jim Jones's commission testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee last week that if we set a date for withdrawal, it will have severe national security implications not only Iraq but the region.

Look at the region -- what do the Saudis do when they feel they have to help the Sunni? What happens when the Iranians gain further and further leverage in the region? What happens as far away as Afghanistan and Pakistan? The Syrians, who are now exporting suicide bombers into Iraq? The lethal explosives that are coming in from Iran? All of that will accelerate, and we will have cause, unfortunately, to return.

And I understand, again, the frustration that people feel, but to somehow assert that we have been pursuing exactly the same tactic is simply not in keeping with what we have been doing on the ground. And I am proud of General Petraeus's leadership, and I'm appalled by the attacks that have been made on him.

SEN. KERRY: Tim, let me answer that, if I may, because it's a very important distinction that's got to be drawn here. John keeps using the word "withdrawal," and a fixed date for withdrawal is now going to abandon Iraq. We're not talking about abandoning Iraq. We're talking about changing the mission and adjusting the mission so that the bulk of your combat troops are withdrawing ultimately within a year, but that you are continuing to provide the basic backstop support necessary to finish the training, so they stand up on their own, and you are continuing to chase al Qaeda.

Now, I think John and others have a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship of al Qaeda to Iraq. Number one, it wasn't there. I thought one of the starkest things that General Petraeus said -- did this have anything to do with al Qaeda? Was al Qaeda in Iraq before we attacked? "No, it wasn't," he said. There was no al Qaeda there.

So we are in Iraq today on false pretenses in the middle of a civil war, expending our troops while Iraqi politicians used us as cover for their own gains. And the only way you will change that is to change this equation. When the president says to them, "We'll stay as long as it takes," they can make the decision to take as long as they want to make any decision necessary.

You wouldn't negotiate the sale of your home the way we're negotiating in Iraq. There is no leverage. We've said we're there. You have to create uncertainty, you have to create leverage, and the only way to do that is say to them, "This mission is transitioning. You have to take responsibility for this security over the course of the next year, and we're going to take a different position."

Now, there is one other ingredient to that, and it's been missing. You have to surge the diplomacy here, not the troops. There is such a stunning absence of real diplomacy in this effort. Where is Condi Rice? Where is the effort of this administration to be engaged in a standing summit and conference where you go into a room, and the president gives the instructions, "You don't leave here until you know one of three things -- They're either willing to have pluralism and settle these differences and do the passing of these laws, or they're going to live in some kind of a semi-partitioned forum where Sunni can't go kill Shi'a and Shi'a can't kill Sunni, or it's impossible.

A president ought to be demanding those answers, and I believe that, you know, what we're doing today, no young American ought to give their life or be grievously wounded so Iraqi politicians can delay making fundamental decisions that they haven't made over four and a half years, and their constituents won't let them make them.

SEN. McCAIN: Do you know what John is advocating? Is to go back to the failed tactic of before. And whether al Qaeda was there before or not, al Qaeda is there now, al Qaeda is there now. Who blew up the mosque in Samara? Who just went in the northern part of Iraq and killed 500 innocent, impoverished people? Who is it that continues to set up most of these suicide bombs to try to increase the sectarian violence between Sunni and Shi'a? It's al Qaeda -- it's al Qaeda in Iraq.

(crosstalk)

SEN. McCAIN: Let me just finish what I'm saying, please. And General Petraeus has said, and I take his word for it, that Iraq is now the central front in the war against al Qaeda. Now, John and his friends don't believe that. I believe the compelling evidence on the ground indicates that clearly, and to say we're going to have a date for withdrawal in complete ignorance of the facts on the ground, in my view, is a recipe for failure and disaster.

SEN. KERRY: Let me speak to that also -- I read and listened to the testimony of John McCain questioning General Petraeus, and John McCain asked him about being the central front, and he said, "How do you know it's the central front?" And he said, "Because I talked to the head of the National Intelligence, and they tell me al Qaeda says it is their central front."

Now, al Qaeda can choose to make it their central front, but we're not leaving al Qaeda to that front. Everything in the Democratic proposal that has 52 votes, a majority of the Senate, says we will leave troops to continue to chase al Qaeda, that's number 1.

Number 2, Tim, al Qaeda views Shi'a as apostates, they are not legitimate Muslims. In fact, you're better off as a Christian or a Jew than as a Shi'a in the eyes of al Qaeda. And Iran, linked as it is already to Maliki who was in Iran a month ago holding hands with the leader of Iran, they are already linked. The Shi'a will never allow al Qaeda to take over Iraq; the Kurds will never allow al Qaeda to take over Iraq. That's 80 to 85 percent of the country, and the Sunni in Anbar have now decided they don't want al Qaeda.

We are the attraction for al Qaeda, and if we begin to reduce our footprint, as the Iraq Study Group has said we should do, as General Jones said we should do, as though seven soldiers of the 82nd Airborne, two of whom were just recently killed, wrote in The New York Times the other day, as we should do. Then al Qaeda, believe me, will be driven out by the Iraqis themselves.

SEN. McCAIN: Surely, you don't believe that General Petraeus reaches his conclusions by talking to somebody.

SEN. KERRY: I am quoting what General Petraeus said.

SEN. McCAIN: Please.

SEN. KERRY: I'm quoting what he said to you, John.

SEN. McCAIN: General Petraeus has said hundreds of times that it is the central front in the war against terror and al Qaeda because of the --

SEN. KERRY: I'm just quoting what he said.

SEN. McCAIN: -- because of the conditions on the ground, and you are quoting him incorrectly and so --

SEN. KERRY: No, I'm quoting absolutely correctly, and, moreover, you're not answering the fundamental issue.

SEN. McCAIN: When Senator Kerry says that we will just take care of al Qaeda, then you go into a place where the -- "Excuse me, sir. You're al Qaeda or Sunni or Shi'a?" Please. We've got to have sufficient -- and General Jones did say if we set a date for withdrawal, and it's on the record, if we set a date for withdrawal then United States security interests will be negatively impacted and harmed in the area as well as Iraq. So please don't -- let's don't quote General Jones again, please.

SEN. KERRY: Once again you used the word "withdrawal." We will have troops in Iraq --

SEN. McCAIN: You are setting a date for withdrawal.

SEN. KERRY: We have all acknowledged there will be some troops there to finish the training, finish standing them up to chase al Qaeda.

MR. RUSSERT: How many American troops?

SEN. KERRY: I can't tell you precisely, Tim. That does depend on what happens on the ground. But I know this -- that if you don't begin to change the equation where Iraqis have the ability now just to rest on American presence and make no decisions, nothing is going to happen.

And the fact is, you have to change it.

Moreover, we are -- you know, with John and others who talk about surrender and talk about withdrawal and leaving it to these disasters, they hold up the specter of the disaster, but then they do nothing to mitigate the potential of that disaster happening.

The fact is, Iran loves our being bogged down in Iraq. Al Qaeda loves our being bogged down in Iraq. We are, as our own National Intelligence Estimate said, "Attracting more terrorists because we are in Iraq." We need to get out of Iraq in order to be stronger to deal with Iran, in order to deal with Hezbollah and Hamas to regain our credibility in the region, and I believe very deeply they understand power. If we were to announce that we're changing the equation; yes, we'll be there in order to protect our interests; yes, we'll be there to prevent chaos and genocide; yes, we'll be there to protect Iran from actually coming into the country. There are plenty of ways to create a new security arrangement.

General Tony Zinni and others have laid out those ways, but we're not pursuing them today. We have one strategy, we've gone back now to stay the course, and the American people rejected to stay the course.

SEN. McCAIN: I hope that next week you'll take 60 seconds and get the quotes from General Jones who said if we set a date for withdrawal it will harm the United States' national security interests in the region --

SEN. KERRY: I'm not arguing about it, he did say that.

SEN. McCAIN: -- and General Petraeus's comments as to why he believes that al Qaeda is now the central -- inaudible.

MR. RUSSERT: General Jones did say it, but he said something else, and let me start with that, Senator McCain, "Although the administration has said repeatedly that security improvements will create breathing space for Iraqi sectarian political forces to move towards national reconciliation, the Jones Commission turns that equation on its head saying that long-term security advances are impossible without political progress. Despite all that remains to be done on the military front, the Jones Commission says, 'The single most important even that could immediately and favorably affect Iraq's direction and security is political reconciliation. Sustained progress within the Iraqi security forces depends on such an agreement.'"

So the president's strategy has been --

SEN. McCAIN: Now, first of all, that's a Washington Post story, an interpretation of General Jones' report.

MR. RUSSERT: He was on this program last week and acknowledged that's exactly --

SEN. McCAIN: And he acknowledged exactly that, and he also acknowledged that without the military security situation, it was also impossible for the political situation.

MR. RUSSERT: But what he said was that the current --

SEN. McCAIN: And he also said that --

MR. RUSSERT: Let me finish -- he said the current administration thinking is that you cannot have political reconciliation without first having security. He says it's the opposite. That you cannot have security --

SEN. McCAIN: I'd say it's the opposite.

MR. RUSSERT: Unless you have political reconciliation.

SEN. McCAIN: I have known Jim Jones for 30 years. It's not what he's saying. What he's saying is we have to have now political progress and he, like all of us, are very frustrated by the lack of political progress; that the Maliki government has not done the things we want them to do, and we have every right to expect it and unless there is political progress that we are not going to succeed in Iraq. We all understand that. We all comprehend that.

But you -- any counterinsurgency expert will tell you that you have to have a military security environment on the ground, and then the other aspects of it move forward. And I think it is moving forward, but it's hard, and it's tough, and it's long, and it's full of disappointments, and to say that somehow with a few troops that we can handle this situation of Iranian further incursion into Southern Iraq, the Syrians continuing their dislocation in the region in support of Hezbollah and Hamas, I think, is a basic misreading of the security situation we face when we "withdraw" as is what the Democrats and John Kerry wants us to do.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Lindsey Graham, a close friend and colleague of yours said that if we do not have progress, reconciliation, within the next 90 days, Iraq very well could be considered a failed state. Do you agree with that?

SEN. McCAIN: I think it's a dysfunctional state. I think we all realize that, and that's also what Lindsey Graham said, and I don't know if it's 90 days or not, but we certainly have to see progress. But to tell them, "Hey, we're getting out of here, and you've got to stay in the neighborhood," they're going to accommodate to the neighborhood.

MR. RUSSERT: If we don't see progress in 90 days, in six months, in nine months, what do we do?

SEN. McCAIN: Well, then, we have to examine the options. If we continue to see success and see military progress and political progress and other progress, then what do we do? Then we can withdraw, and then we can have less of a presence of the United States military troops on the ground, a reduction of casualties, and we'll probably -- maybe have troops there. We've got troops in the Balkans, we've got troops in South Korea, we've got troops in Okinawa. It's a matter of whether Americans are being sacrificed and being wounded as to whether Americans will be satisfied with continued American presence there.

MR. RUSSERT: Why not continue the surge, continue to try to make political progress, and then withdraw troops after those have been achieved?

SEN. KERRY: Tim, the surge -- to promise the Iraqis that next summer we're going to have 130,000-plus troops there, which is exactly where we were a year ago when the country almost fell apart, is not to change the fundamental equation. If you're a Shi'a and the leader there, and you want a Shi'a Islamic state, the reason they're not compromising is not because they can't sit down in a room and do it is because their constituencies don't want to do it.

The Shi'a want a Shi'a Islamic state. The Sunni want to return to power and believe they're born to the right to run Iraq. Now, unless you resolve the fundamental differences between those two in some way, either through the pluralistic democratic government, which they don't seem capable of doing, or through some kind of loose federalism where they're okay to live apart, which they are proving they may need to do. Unless you do that, nothing is going to happen. No surge, no amount of troops will resolve that.

How many times do we have to hear President Bush, Vice President Cheney, Condi Rice, General Casey, General Abizaid, General Petraeus all say there is no military solution? Well, if there is no military solution, where is the political solution?

Let me read you -- these are seven troops. They wrote it in the New York Times, 82nd Airborne, they've been there the whole tour, and they wrote, "To believe that Americans with an occupying force that long ago outlived its reluctant welcome can win over a recalcitrant local population and win this counterinsurgency is farfetched. As responsible infantrymen and non-commissioned officers with the 82nd Airborne Division, soon heading back home, we are skeptical of recent press coverage portraying the conflict as increasingly manageable," and they go on to say it, two of them, Sergeant Meara and Sergeant Gray were killed the other day -- one wounded -- another one wounded.

These -- you know, you've got to listen to these people. The Iraqis have fundamental differences that will not be resolved by a surge. It is not dependent on the security and, as General Jones said, what happened in Anbar was a -- General Jones didn't say that -- but what happened in Anbar was a political decision first. The political leaders said, "We're going to fight al Qaeda," and then they joined with the Americans.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator, your views may be all well and good, and the Democrats may be fine, and you may have 52 votes, but the president has said, "I'm sorry. I've heard you, I've heard General Petraeus, I'm going with General Petraeus." What do the Democrats do now? If you want to stop the war, you have but one choice and that is, in effect, stop the funding. Close down the government and say, "Not one more penny for the war in Iraq, Mr. President." Otherwise, the war will go forward as President Bush intended to.

SEN. KERRY: Well, actually, we don't have that choice because everything depends on having 60 votes or 67 votes to override a veto. So any law that we pass, the president has the power through a pen to be able to negate. So what we need today is a change of attitude by some Republicans who shouldn't be content to stand up and give a strong speech condemning what's happening or accurately describing what I've described but then not voting to put it into place.

And that is what the 2008 election will be significantly about -- how do you make American stronger? I believe the president's rhetoric and the rhetoric of those who talk about surrender and who talk about the Democrats choosing to lose is insulting and incorrect. We're choosing to win for America. We're choosing to strengthen our country. We're choosing to be able to have a policy that reasserts American moral authority and puts us in a position to leverage peace in the Middle East to deal with Hamas, Hezbollah; to deal with Lebanon; to deal with Iraq and Iran.

And, right now, Iran loves what's happening. We're playing right into their hands and the --

MR. RUSSERT: Will you vote to cut off funding for the war?

SEN. KERRY: I will vote to change the funding to a different mission. I will fund the troops to protect the national security interests of America to accomplish a mission that increases our national security and protects the troops themselves.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator, a majority of the Congress wants a different policy; a majority of the American people want a different policy. Can you sustain a war without their support?

SEN. McCAIN: Not forever. The majority of Americans were opposed to and wanted us out of Korea. Thanks to a very brave president named Harry Truman, Korea is now -- at least South Korea is now free today.

On this issue of bringing up the men and women who are serving and how they feel about the war, look, I hear from them all the time. I lament the loss of those brave young -- two young Americans who wrote that piece. I hear from hundreds of them every day. Just like in Vietnam, despite what was accepted, Americans wanted to win in Vietnam, they want to win here. I hear from these men and women, hundreds of them, all the time. They want us to win. And to go back to the same failed strategy of before and somehow say that everything is going to be fine in the Middle East if we announce that we're leaving, I think does not comport with reality or history, and we've been through these fights before as to whether the United States should direct its influence throughout the world. And I believe that this is some way a repeat of that.

But the fact is that we are succeeding militarily. We are succeeding in a new tactic, and that is succeeding. And in Anbar Province, by the way, I asked General Petraeus -- he said the reason why we had the success in Anbar Province is we had the extra 4,000 Marines to send there, and that was -- solidified that position. We all want to see progress. We are seeing progress. To pull the plug at this particular time, I believe, would be disastrous for the future of this country.

MR. RUSSERT: When you say "win," how do you define win?

SEN. McCAIN: The same way you succeed in any counterinsurgency. The government functions effectively, there's an environment of security, there's probably long-term conflicts within the country as there has been with other insurgency, but, basically, you continue to progress and bring a free and open and democratic society and fight back.

Look, this is an evil influence. They think they're winning, maybe John doesn't, but if you listen to bin Laden, Zarqawi and all that, they say they drove us out of Beirut, they drove us out of Mogadishu. They hit the USS Cole, they attacked our embassies, and they're saying we'll drive them out of Iraq, and we will succeed, and surely listen to what's he saying.

SEN. KERRY: He's saying that for the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

SEN. McCAIN: And he's able to reach every corner of the world.

SEN. KERRY: Yeah, and he's able to do it because this administration took their eye off of him and chose to go to war in a place that had nothing to do with the war on terror. And the fact is, as I said before, al Qaeda loves our being in Iraq. If you want to put al Qaeda off balance --

SEN. McCAIN: Al Qaeda loves being in Iraq.

SEN. KERRY: -- then change the equation. And Iran loves the fact that we're in Iraq, but Iran is getting stronger.

SEN. McCAIN: And Iran loves to be in Iraq.

SEN. KERRY: Excuse me?

SEN. McCAIN: And Iran loves to be in Iraq, and they are.

SEN. KERRY: Well, Iran is in Iraq.

SEN. McCAIN: And al Qaeda is in Iraq. And al Qaeda is -- if we don't continue to beat them back will be a major influence and have training bases, and they will have --

SEN. KERRY: John, this is debating yourself, because we --

SEN. McCAIN: I'm --

SEN. KERRY: You are, because we've said we're going to continue to fight al Qaeda.

SEN. McCAIN: You are asking to go back to a failed strategy that has failed for nearly four years that many of us pointed out that you voted for, by the way.

SEN. KERRY: John --

SEN. McCAIN: So -- I hope that we will have the patience and the understanding on the part of the American people that they have made great sacrifice, and all of us are saddened by it, but I hope we can also point out the consequences of failure, which is what the Democrats are proposing now.

SEN. KERRY: Now, listen to that. You just the Democrats are proposing failure. We've had four and a half years of failure.

SEN. McCAIN: -- inaudible.

SEN. KERRY: The Republicans stood up and cheered for Rumsfeld, who had a policy of not enough troops. To his credit, John, at least said he needs more troops. But the fact is they've supported every step of this president misleading America about the course of this war.

Last January the president stood up to Americans. You know what he said, Tim? He said "We will hold them accountable to their benchmarks." They're not holding them accountable. They have no means of holding them accountable because they've said we're going to stay there with 130,000 troops into next summer. They have no leverage.

We are not proposing failure, as John loves to assert and Republicans love to assert. We are proposing a way to strengthen America in the region. We are proposing a way to, in fact, make Iraq successful to the degree that it can be by playing to the real undercurrents of their cultural and historical divisions. Nothing in the surge addresses the question of Shi'a/Sunni divide. Nothing in the surge is going to resolve the fundamental reluctance of Iraqi politicians to make a decision, Tim, that we're not talking about abandoning the place.

Why do the Republicans have a complete inability to envision a foreign policy as we used to have Republican and Democrat alike, which plays to our strengths and builds alliances with other countries, bring the United Nations back in, bring the neighbors into this, have a standing summit and a standing conference where we resolve these differences as best as can be. The United States can't do it alone, and we have to change the equation so we regain leverage and initiative. That's not walking away, that's walking forward and putting us in a stronger posture.

SEN. McCAIN: In my study of military history, I never heard of a withdrawal and a reduction of military presence as being a winning strategy. The fact is that we are succeeding. That's the thing that the Democrats won't realize and, of course, I'm saying it's a recipe for failure, of course, history teaches me and others including virtually every other expert on national security that if we announce withdrawal we will fail, and we will see catastrophic consequences.

I, for example, not only say we needed more troops, I said we needed a new strategy, and the strategy that's being employed now, which has only been in effect for some six months and, of course, Americans are frustrated, and they're saddened. But to somehow allege that we can affect events on the ground with less troops and less presence, when the surge is what has changed the equation on the ground defies real depiction of the facts on the ground, and the facts on the ground are that we are seeing military success, and almost everybody acknowledges that.

SEN. KERRY: Where is the --

SEN. McCAIN: -- significant military success.

SEN. KERRY: Supposedly, we're training Iraqi troops.

SEN. McCAIN: And they're doing much better.

SEN. KERRY: Supposedly, they're supposed to be after -- the Iraqi prime minister said they can stand up with their own security by this November. We're talking about a transition policy that goes into next spring. Are you telling me that after five and a half years of war, which is what it will be next spring, Iraqis can't have people capable of walking their streets with a gun and keeping peace? Please, how can they assert that after all of these years of training -- you train an American recruit, and in four or five months you can have him on a battlefield.

SEN. McCAIN: I'm telling you there were colossal failures in the training of the Iraqis under dormer Secretary Rumsfeld, and --

SEN. KERRY: And General Petraeus, who was in charge of it.

SEN. McCAIN: I'm telling you right now that Iraqi and American soldiers and Marines are fighting together in neighborhoods in Baghdad and Anbar and other places, and we are proud of the work that the Iraqi military is doing, and they're getting better every day, and I am convinced that in a relatively short period of time, they will take over more and more of those responsibilities as they were.

And I think it's wrong to denigrate the sacrifices that Iraqi soldiers are making right now on behalf of their country.

SEN. KERRY: What have we denigrated?

SEN. McCAIN: You were saying they were ineffective. They are effective, and they are fighting alongside of Americans.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator McCain --

SEN. KERRY: I never used the word "ineffective." What I said is they are not standing up at the levels --

SEN. McCAIN: They are standing up well. They are standing up well.

SEN. KERRY: -- that they should be after four and a half years of training. We were told by Secretary Rice at our committee, earlier this year, that 120,000 were trained and ready to go. General Petraeus, when I visited with him in Iraq, told me he would have 100,000 and some ready to go -- two years ago. How, how many times do they get to change the goal posts and change the policy and move it to a different place? Where is the accountability for the benchmarks?

No young American soldier should give their life or limb in order to have Iraqi politicians continue to delay making fundamental decisions. That's what this is about.

MR. RUSSERT: President Bush said we will have an enduring relationship with Iraq, and that there will be troops in Iraq after his presidency. Do you agree?

SEN. KERRY: Yes.

MR. RUSSERT: To both?

SEN. KERRY: We should have an enduring relationship, hopefully, within Iraq that is able to stand up and define itself in the way that I said. The question is, how do you get there, Tim, and what treasure do you expend in getting there? I believe we will, obviously, providing that there hasn't been a complete implosion and we're not asked to leave. Seventy percent --

MR. RUSSERT: Will this be the central issue of the 2008 presidential campaign?

SEN. KERRY: If it is where it is today, yes.

MR. RUSSERT: Do you agree with that?

SEN. McCAIN: Probably, but it won't be where it is today. You will see continued success, and if Senator Kerry succeeds in implementing what he wants, then you will see catastrophe, and you will see a lot more loss of American blood and treasure.

MR. RUSSERT: I gave him the first word, I'll give you the last word.

SEN. KERRY: Well, Tim, John keeps avoiding the -- and the administration keeps avoiding the need to have the second component here, which is real diplomacy. Nothing that we have proposed is proposed in a vacuum. We're not saying just change the mission. We're saying use American leverage, work with our allies, work with the neighbors with a real diplomatic surge that brings the United Nations back and, in effect, creates a structure which not just American treasure and American lives that are on the line.

The president, the other day, talked about 36 allies. I'll lay odds John McCain can't name 36 allies. I can't. That's an insult to American intelligence. How much are they contributing to the budget? I believe you need diplomacy, real diplomacy, it's been absent, we deserve a president who is going to lead us and provide that and, together, with the change in the dynamics on the ground, we can save American lives. I think John and I agree 100 percent in the quality of the service of our troops, the unbelievable sacrifice they are making. We all support them, we're proud of them, and we want them to get home safely.

MR. RUSSERT: John Kerry, John McCain, two sailors, two men of the Navy, two U.S. senators, we thank you very much for sharing your views.

SEN. McCAIN: Thank you very much.

SEN. KERRY: Great to be with you.


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