MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews"-Transcript

Interview

MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews"-Transcript

MR. MATTHEWS: John Edwards is on another tour of Iowa. Tonight he joins us from Waterloo.

Senator Edwards, thank you for joining us.

MR. EDWARDS: Thank you for having me.

MR. MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about this attack. In The Washington Post, top of the front page today, Senator Obama, one of your competitors in this race, has attacked Hillary Clinton as a divisive figure in the country. He says that all the old baggage of the Clinton wars is going to ruin the country and divide us. Do you agree?

MR. EDWARDS: Well, here's what I think, Chris. I think we need change, and we need change in a serious way. And I think the voters are going to have a choice. I mean, they're going to have a choice between a candidate like me that represents going in a new and different direction, saying no to Washington lobbyists' money, and those who continue to take that money. And I think that's an important choice.

MR. MATTHEWS: Is Hillary Clinton a divisive force because she brings back the continued old war between the Clintons and their critics?

MR. EDWARDS: Well, I think the reality is, people in this country, they love Hillary Clinton or they don't. And that's just the way she is, in many cases through no fault of her own. And I think that's probably what Senator Obama is talking about.

MR. MATTHEWS: Can she change?

MR. EDWARDS: Can she change, or can she change the country's mind?

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, can she change? Can she stop being the candidate of the Clinton administration of the 1990s and be the candidate of the 21st century? Or is she yesterday's news?

MR. EDWARDS: If she's willing to say, "We're going to change our behavior." We don't want to trade one crowd of insiders for a different crowd of insiders in Washington. And she can make a stance, by the way, on that subject by doing what I've asked her to do, which is to join us in saying no to Washington lobbyist money. But I think she's going to have to make a clear break and make it clear she's not part of the Washington inside crowd.

MR. MATTHEWS: Is she corrupt?

MR. EDWARDS: Oh, I don't have any reason to believe that's true.

MR. MATTHEWS: But you say that she's taking Washington money; she's taking money from lobbyists. Doesn't that corrupt a person? Isn't that your belief?

MR. EDWARDS: My belief is, Chris, that taking money from Washington lobbyists sends a clear signal to the rest of the country that that crowd in Washington is in control of the government, and they have much more access and much more influence than ordinary Americans do. It's that simple.

I don't think it means that people in Congress who are taking lobbyists' money are dishonest. You know, Senator Obama took lobbyists' money up until this campaign. I don't think that means he's dishonest. I just think we need to make a clear break from that and make a clear statement about it. And I think my party, the party of the people, ought to be leading the way on this.

MR. MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about Elizabeth, your wonderful wife. She's been really good at going at the opponents. Here's a headline from today's New York Post. "Mrs. Edwards plays battle axe." Do you think that's a fair description of her criticism of some of your rivals, like Obama and Hillary?

MR. EDWARDS: Well, the one thing I'm never going to do is say to the woman I've been married to for 30 years and I love is that she's a battle axe. (Laughs.) I think she's tough.

MR. MATTHEWS: (Laughs.) No, you didn't. What do you think of the New York Post saying it, though? What do you think?

MR. EDWARDS: (Laughs.) Well, I don't think she's going to like it much. I mean, I think Elizabeth is frank and plain-spoken. She says what she believes. I think she ought to keep saying what she believes. I admire that in her.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, that's wonderful. Let me ask you about foreign policy, which, of course, is at the top of the list for most Americans; number one, the war in Iraq. General Petraeus said late this afternoon that we're going to have a smaller footprint in Iraq by next summer.

How do you read that? Is that good news or is that nothing? What is it?

MR. EDWARDS: I have no idea. We have no more substance than what you just told me. I think -- I heard news earlier today that he was talking about moving some troops back in Iraq. I don't know what that means either. I mean, the way for America to deal with Iraq is America needs to be getting out of Iraq. It's that simple. If that's what he's saying, then that's good news. But I don't know, from what you just told me, whether that's true or not.

MR. MATTHEWS: If all he means is he's moving the troops to the outskirts of the cities, does that make you any more sanguine about this administration's policy or not?

MR. EDWARDS: Not in the least, no. We have to start taking troops out of Iraq and bringing them home.

MR. MATTHEWS: This administration is making a lot of noise about going after the Revolutionary Guards, the elements in Iran that are interfering with the war in Iraq and causing damage to our troops over there and to the Iraqi army. Do you think we're on the verge of beginning another open war with another Islamic country, in this case Iran?

MR. EDWARDS: I think the Congress and people who have a bully pulpit like me need to speak up very strongly about this, Chris. We cannot have this president once again launch a preemptive strike which gets America in the kind of difficulty that we've had in Iraq, particularly when he hasn't even engaged the Iranians in a serious way in trying to resolve this problem.

So, no, I think that we need to speak out. I have no idea what's in George Bush's mind. I haven't known for a long time. But I know what the Congress can do and I know what leaders in this country can do, and we've got to speak out against this kind of behavior.

MR. MATTHEWS: Do you think the Congress should pass an authorization saying the president should not attack Iran without approval?

MR. EDWARDS: I think that the Congress should say that the president -- maybe it's the same thing you just said, that the president cannot launch a strike against Iran without first coming to the Congress and having a debate in the Congress.

MR. MATTHEWS: Here's a question that was put to me this morning on a radio interview that I did myself, and I want to bring it to you because I think it's a hot question, because we were attacked on 9/11 by Osama bin Laden, who's still at large, as we all know. He's believed to be somewhere in northwest Pakistan, but nobody knows for sure.

If you're elected president on January 20th, you take office in 2009, what's your plan for catching and dealing with this guy who killed 3,000 Americans?

MR. EDWARDS: Well, first I'd have to know, Chris, something that I don't presently know, which is what is the most up-to-date intelligence, and is it actionable, on where Osama bin Laden is? But I think what we would do, assuming that he is in northwest Pakistan, and assuming we don't know precisely where he is, I think we have to ratchet up pressure on Musharraf and the Pakistani government.

We have huge leverage with them. They get enormous amounts of money from the United States of America, and they are not doing what they need to do. And the first step would be for me personally and the United States government, with all of its economic power with the Pakistanis, to ratchet up the pressure on Musharraf.

MR. MATTHEWS: If you had actionable intelligence, as you put it, on the whereabouts of bin Laden, and Musharraf poo-pooed it and tried to stop or delay the thing or kill it, slow-mo the discussion, and you suspected he was avoiding action, would you take action unilaterally as commander in chief?

MR. EDWARDS: Would I go get bin Laden if I knew where he was? Is that the question?

MR. MATTHEWS: And Musharraf said he didn't want to do it; and Musharraf said don't do it.

MR. EDWARDS: Well, Musharraf wasn't attacked on September 11th. As president of the United States, if I knew where Osama bin Laden was, I'd go get him exactly where he is.

MR. MATTHEWS: So you agree with Obama on that one.

MR. EDWARDS: Well, I don't know. I've not followed precisely what Obama said. I think he's talked about sending a large number of troops into Pakistan.

MR. MATTHEWS: Right.

MR. EDWARDS: I don't know if I agree with that. I mean, I've told you what I think we ought to do with Musharraf.

MR. MATTHEWS: Yeah.

MR. EDWARDS: But if I had actionable intelligence and I knew where Osama bin Laden was, the man who masterminded the attack on the United States of September 11th, I would absolutely go get him where he is.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, last question, Senator, about the beloved and much-loved, I should say, Elizabeth Edwards. The New York Post called her a battle axe. Could you give me a more benign reference to your fighting partner?

MR. EDWARDS: Open, honest, plain-spoken. I mean, she's somebody who speaks her mind and has a great conscience, from my perspective. And I want her to keep speaking her mind.

And, by the way, talk about speaking your mind; there's one last thing I wanted to say to you, Chris. Just before I came out here to do this interview, my seven-year-old, Jack, said, "Dad, is it fun to be on 'Hardball'?" I said, "I think it's only fun if you're Chris Matthews."

MR. MATTHEWS: Oh, come on.

MR. EDWARDS: (Laughs.)

MR. MATTHEWS: You're welcome back at any time, Senator. Good luck in the race. You're making it interesting, sir. Thank you, Senator John Edwards, running for president.

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