Agriculture, Rural Development, Food and Drug Administration, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2004

AGRICULTURE, RURAL DEVELOPMENT, FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION, AND RELATED AGENCIES APPROPRIATIONS ACT, 2004

Mr. DURBIN. Will the Senator yield for a question?

Mr. TALENT. Yes.

Mr. DURBIN. In fairness, I have supported this policy. When I return home and meet with people in grocery store chains that serve his State and mine, they have raised some legitimate questions, as far as I am concerned, about how much is required. It seems to me to be not a great burden to ask them to put some notice, for example, that the bananas are from Costa Rica or from some other country. Most of their concerns seem to be directed toward meat and whether or not they can legitimately trace the meat, and through all the requirements of the legislation and how much time is involved. I come to this issue realizing that whenever regulation is proposed, it is usually the first defense of the opponents to say it is going to cost 10 times as much as you would imagine to implement it.

I ask the Senator from Missouri-and this is an honest question, and I have no predisposition on his position on this issue-can he say, as he is standing there in opposition to this, that the cost estimates coming out are reasonable, in light of what is being asked of these grocery chains?

Mr. TALENT. I appreciate the Senator's question. I am happy to answer him in complete candor. I have not had the capacity in my subcommittee and in my office to be able to quantify what the costs are. I do know that actors in the chain of production, who I don't think have a big ax to grind-I am not talking about the packers here-have told me they are very concerned with what they are going to have to do to comply with this. It is chiefly the retailers, but not just them; also auction barns, and I have had producer organizations come; and I think their sense is that the thing that we are basically intending-as the Senator is saying, let consumers know where the beef comes from-is something we probably could handle at an affordable level.

But there is enough uncertainty in this, which they are not willing to risk, and the Senator can understand that they don't want to face-or be the ones at risk of facing a huge liability if they get it wrong. So it is reasonable to believe that the potential cost of this is very substantial. I can say that to the Senator. I cannot say it is $2 billion or half a billion. I just cannot tell the Senator that.

Mr. DURBIN. I would like to raise another issue. Really, I didn't think about it until August. I heard from two different grocery chains-one based in Chicago and one in St. Louis-about this legislation, and it goes as follows: If you establish a burden on a grocery store or a chain to follow these regulations, it necessarily involves manpower. People will have to keep records and label products, and all of that is part of it.

How much? As the Senator said, and I agree, I cannot quantify it. I don't know how much that is. The point made to me is that the Wal-Marts of the world, which pay rock-bottom wages, with no health benefits, will be able to come up with the manpower at a much lower cost than some of the major grocery store chains, some of which are union-organized, that pay a living wage and health benefits. They say to us, you are once again giving a competitive advantage to the Wal-Marts of the world that pay these low wages, with no benefits, to the disadvantage of grocery store companies who are trying to be good neighbors and good corporate citizens and provide decent wages and benefits.

Has the Senator heard this observation?

Mr. TALENT. I have. I have heard a number of things from retailers. One chain told me they are probably going to have to end up laying off many meatcutters because more of it will be prepackaged. I mentioned that in my remarks. I have retailers telling me they are going to advertise less for beef.

One fellow said: I don't want a lot of beef if I have this potential liability. I will simply advertise more for chicken. It will hurt the smaller stores in the more rural areas, and the bigger unionized stores to some extent. In fairness to the Senators who supported this, and in good faith still support it, I want to say a lot depends on how exactly these companies interpret the law and what risk level they are willing to go to.

My concern as a lawyer-and I think the Senator would probably agree-is that their general counselors are going to say: We are not going to take a chance. Tell everybody all up and down the production chain, this is what we want from them, and they are going to have to bear the cost.

Mr. DURBIN. I thank the Senator.

Mr. TALENT. I yield the floor.