CNN Late Edition-Transcript

Interview

CNN Late Edition-Transcript

BLITZER: Thanks very much, Fred. Thousands marched in Washington yesterday as the United States begins its fifth year in Iraq. Some were there in support of the war, but most were protesting against it.

Joining us now, one of the chief Congressional critics of the Bush administration's handling of the war, Democratic Representative John Murtha of Pennsylvania. He's the chairman of the Defense Appropriations Subcommittee. Congressman, thanks for coming in.

MURTHA: Nice to be here, Wolf.

BLITZER: I want your immediate reaction to what the new defense secretary, Robert Gates, said earlier today on CBS concerning some of the Democratic proposals to deal with the situation in Iraq. Listen to Gates.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SECRETARY OF ROBERT M. GATES: The concern I have is that if you have specific deadlines and very strict conditions, it makes it difficult if not impossible for our commanders to achieve their objectives and, frankly, as I read it, the house bill is more about withdrawal regardless of the circumstances on the ground than it is about trying to produce a positive outcome.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right, Congressman. What do you think?

MURTHA: Well, here's the problem. They've mismanaged this war. They talk about us micromanaging. They've mismanaged the war so badly, they put the commanders in impossible positions.

These commanders are demanding more troops and yet the troops aren't home for a year, they're being extended, they're being sent in without equipment, without -- look, they're going to ask for a trillion dollars, a trillion dollars in the next year between last year's appropriation and next year's appropriation. And we should have accountability. The contractors are falling all over each other. We need benchmarks. The Iraqis are not going to pay any attention to the threats because they keep making threats over and over again. We have a responsibility to the American people to get these troops out of there. The first step to redeploy -- or the first step to stability is redeployment of the troops in Iraq.

BLITZER: All right, so, for our viewers who aren't familiar with the details of what you would like to see happen, explain very briefly how quickly do you want to see combat forces start withdrawing and completely withdrawing?

MURTHA: Well, what our legislation says that they have to -- if there's no progress, and I'm talking about if their economic progress, oil production, electricity production, all the things we measure aren't better by July 1st, they have to start redeployment.

BLITZER: July 1st of this year?

MURTHA: July 1st of this year. If they do get better, then March of next year they should start redeploying.

BLITZER: Because they're saying there has been some -- at least initial progress.

MURTHA: Well, that's what they say, but they said this right along. This is part of the problem. Every time they say there's progress, Wolf, it turns out there's no progress, and then they have to backtrack.

For instance they say everything is getting better, yet oil production, electricity production are all at below prewar levels. Incidents have increased outside Baghdad. They're less in Baghdad but have increased, and you saw the latest casualty figures.

So it's not necessarily getting better. All of us hope it'll get better, but you have to do something dramatic if you want it to get better. And one of the things they haven't done, every time something happens, they step in, send in American troops. And these American troops are being punished and it's individuals.

Wolf, here is the problem we have. It's not thousands of troops. It's each individual troop who hasn't been home. It's each individual troop who hasn't been trained, it's each individual troop who doesn't have the equipment they need to go into combat.

BLITZER: Are the Iraqi troops getting better?

MURTHA: Well, there's only 50 percent of them showing up. That's the problem. They said 86 percent in the first couple weeks of this redeployment, and now it's only 50 percent of them showing up. That's the problem we face.

And so what do we do? We send in more troops. They should be the ones responsible. They're going to have to solve this themselves. There's no way we can solve this war. They have to solve it themselves.

BLITZER: Listen to Senator John McCain. He's been an ardent supporter of the president's strategy. In fact, he thinks even more troops should have been deployed and should be deployed. But listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, R-ARIZ.: Some argue that Iraq is already a catastrophe, and we need to get our soldiers out of the way of its consequences. To my colleagues who believe this I say, you have no idea how much worse things could get.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right. Do you want to respond to McCain?

MURTHA: Well, I think because they say it doesn't make it so. Because the White House says it, doesn't make it so. They're the responsible for the mismanagement of this war. They're responsible for the troop leaders having to ask for troops which they don't have. And they're depleting our strategic reserve.

Wolf, we have no strategic reserve in this country today. We couldn't respond to anything in Iran, anything in Korea, and if we respond with inadequate forces, we can't even come up with the forces we need to redeploy to Iraq and to get troops in Iraq without equipment. There are going to be two units go to Iraq without the appropriate equipment, and they go...

BLITZER: When you say without the appropriate equipment, what do you mean?

MURTHA: I mean trucks, body armor, all the things that they need.

BLITZER: But how can the U.S. send troops in without adequate body armor?

MURTHA: A lot of people say to me they don't trust the president. They think he'll waive that national security waiver. I don't believe that. I don't believe he'll certify sending troops if they don't have the equipment. But they put us in a terrible position, even with the trillion dollars we're going to spend, that they don't have what they need.

Two units are not going to the desert to train. They'll have basic training, the advanced training. They won't have the desert training they need before they go into Iraq. These are the type of things that worry me.

BLITZER: You have a lot more confidence in the new defense secretary, Robert Gates, than you did in Rumsfeld.

MURTHA: Well, he listens. He pays attention. He's more honest. For instance, they finally admit it's a civil war. They admit it's going to take some time. Before, we've got nothing but a rosy picture. So, I think what you get from him is going to be a much more honest appraisal of what's going on.

But I don't appreciate and I don't understand the continual optimistic view of the White House because it's not getting better. And the first step is you get them out of Saddam Hussein's palace, get them out of the Green Zone, get them out of Iraq. Get rid of Abu Ghraib. Get rid of Guantanamo.

Those are the kind of things people understand. We're the most unpopular nation in the world today, except for I think North Korea is ahead of us. So, we need to re-establish a diplomatic effort. That's the only thing that's going to solve the problem in Iraq.

BLITZER: Listen to what the Senate Republican leader, Mitch McConnell, said earlier in the week. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL, R-KY.: It is constitutionally dubious, and it would authorize a scattered band of United States senators to literally tie the hands of the commander in chief.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right. Because he is the commander in chief, the president -- the United States has only one commander in chief -- and basically what he's saying to you, Congressman, and to other critics, give me a chance to get it right.

I have a new commander, General Petraeus, on the ground. He says he needs some time. General Odierno says he needs six to nine months to see if this is working. Why not give them a little bit more time?

MURTHA: Wolf, they've said this over and over again. Give me six months. It's going to get better. It's getting better. That's what they say all the time.

Let's take a more simple example: Walter Reed. I go to Walter Reed all the time.

BLITZER: That's the chief U.S. Army hospital here in Washington.

MURTHA: Exactly. They never told me there was any problem with Building 18. We put money into Walter Reed.

BLITZER: Let me just explain to our viewers, Building 18 is the outpatient facility that was a disaster.

MURTHA: Yeah. And so I go out there, and they never tell me. If they'd have told me they had a problem, we'd have taken care of it if money was the problem. So, mismanagement of Walter Reed, we have an obligation to take care of those kind of problems. We do it all the time.

Landstuhl, which is our military base in Germany, we took care of with air conditioning. We take care of those problems -- and in Iraq, it's the same thing. A trillion dollars that Congress has a responsibility to the American people and to the troops that are over there and to the families who are suffering from this war to make sure they have what they need before they go to war.

BLITZER: I think one of the problems at Walter Reed, as you know, was that it was slated to be shut down and they simply didn't want to put more money into it if it's going to be closed in any case.

MURTHA: And, Wolf, we knew that so we put more money into Walter Reed the last two years because we knew that was going to be a problem, and they still didn't tell me about that problem or it would have been fixed. That's the tragic thing.

Now, we also said "Don't close Walter Reed" in the last piece of legislation. So we're moving in the right direction, but we have to know about these things. They have to be honest and deal with it. They've been dealing as a dictatorship -- I'm talking about this administration.

This administration has been dealing as a dictatorship, not as a partner with the Congress. They asked us for a trillion dollars; they should come to us and tell us actually what's going on. I think Gates will be better. We still have got a long ways to go.

BLITZER: Your fellow Pennsylvanian, the former U.S. Senator Rick Santorum, wrote a very tough article in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette this week and he lashes out at you.

I'm going to read it. "He reminds me of another Democratic leader during a time of war, General George McClellan. He was twice the Union commander in the early years of the Civil War. He was a great leader, but he loved his troops so much that he was unable to commit them to battle, thus passing up opportunities for a swift and less bloody conflict. Jack, if you really love our men and women in uniform as much as you say, let them fight and give them what they need to win."

MURTHA: Well, at least he says "Let them fight." So many Republicans in Congress say we're fighting. We're fighting this war. We're fighting it overseas. We're not fighting this war. The young troops are fighting it, and we need to give them everything they need to do it. In the meantime, the first step to stability in the Middle East is going to be redeployment.

BLITZER: How worried are you, this charge that the vice president Dick Cheney makes, that if the U.S. were to precipitously withdraw, not only Iraq but the entire region, the Persian Gulf and the Middle East, would result in chaos?

MURTHA: Why would I believe that? I mean, all the things that they have predicted have -- everything I predicted turned out to be true. Nothing they predicted turned out to be true. Why would I believe there's going to be chaos in the Middle East just because they say it? The Iraqis don't believe that. The countries on the periphery don't believe that and the public doesn't believe it. The public wants us out. They spoke in the last election. They're ignoring the mandate that the public gave the Congress of the United States, and in the end, they're going to have to redeploy.

BLITZER: We've got to leave it there. John Murtha, Democratic Congressman from Pennsylvania, thanks for coming in.

MURTHA: Good talking to you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Appreciate it very much.

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