Senate Finance Committee Hearing on Homeland Security and Terrorism Threats From Document Fraud, Identity Theft and Social Security Number Misuse

Senate Finance Committee Holds A Hearing on Homeland Security and Terrorism Threats From Document Fraud, Identity Theft and Social Security Number Misuse

BUNNING:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am very, very interested in the false identification on Social Security numbers, particularly. I will wait until the expert witness on theft identity comes before me.

My question to you is: if, in fact, this gentleman who was the cell leader was involved, when did you prosecute this case?

CONVERTINO:
This year, in June.

BUNNING:
In 2003.

CONVERTINO:
Yes, sir.

BUNNING:
And when did you incarcerate or capture the four people or three people in the cell, other than the leader?

CONVERTINO:
September 17, 2001.

BUNNING:
September 17, 2001. Can you give me some idea why it took you to 11/4/02 to find the cell leader and capture him?

CONVERTINO:
I can tell you that he was a fugitive and that we didn't even know his name. We knew his first name. That was relayed to us by Mr. Hmimssa, as Abdullah. We had no idea what his name was.

He was arrested with a plethora of false identification under various names. You can see . . .

BUNNING:
Yes.

CONVERTINO:
. . . on the screen that his picture is on two. He is on a resident alien card and also on a New Jersey driver's license under two separate names. He flitted and floated in the United States under aliases for a long time.

BUNNING:
Was there any evidence discovered during your investigation that might indicate that there were active cells that were also associated with the cell that you discovered and prosecuted?

CONVERTINO:
No, sir.

BUNNING:
None?

CONVERTINO:
No, sir.

BUNNING:
In other words, there was only four people in the cell. And you were successful in prosecuting three?

CONVERTINO:
Actually, with Mr. Hmimssa, it would be four. Mr. Hmimssa was convicted as well.

BUNNING:
But he wasn't convicted as a terrorist.

CONVERTINO:
Yes, that's right, sir. He was not.

BUNNING:
OK. In other words, there were three that were convicted as terrorists and one that was . . .

CONVERTINO:
Acquitted.

BUNNING:
And one that was acquitted completely?

CONVERTINO:
Yes, sir.

BUNNING:
I have no more questions.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

BUNNING:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to go back to how you got here. You said you bought French passports on the black market in Europe?

HMIMSSA:
Yes, sir.

BUNNING:
And what kind of passport was it? A regular passport? In other words, there are more than one kind of passport.

HMIMSSA:
There's a diplomat passport and regular passport.

BUNNING:
Yeah. Yours was a regular one?

HMIMSSA:
Yes, sir.

BUNNING:
What kind of visa did you get also?

HMIMSSA:
I did not need a visa, like for also Western countries, they do not need visa between each other. Traveling is, you know . . .

BUNNING:
What about work permits?

HMIMSSA:
I did not need a work permit.

BUNNING:
You did not need one with the kind of passport you had?

HMIMSSA:
No, sir.

BUNNING:
In other words, your passport allowed you to come to the United States and work as a citizen might?

HMIMSSA:
No, sir. But . . .

BUNNING:
Well, explain to me.

HMIMSSA:
Well, you know, I get to the United States and I get Social Security card and a driver's license.

BUNNING:
I want to get back to that in a moment because that's my hang-up. But your passport allowed you to apply for a Social Security card?

HMIMSSA:
Yes.

BUNNING:
And when you applied for the Social Security card, the questions you filled out -- and as chairman of the Social Security Subcommittee over in the House, I know exactly the form that you had to fill out. So you had to falsify your mother's maiden name. And all the other thing were falsified also, correct?

HMIMSSA:
No, sir. No, sir.

BUNNING:
Oh, no?

HMIMSSA:
I did not falsify my mother's maiden name or father's name. I gave the same, you know, I gave the information like on the passport. But when it comes to mother's maiden name and father's name, I did not.

BUNNING:
So how could your mother's and father's name be different than the passport that you came in on?

HMIMSSA:
On a French passport, it did not say the mother's maiden name or . . .

BUNNING:
But your personal name was on the passport, correctly? False name?

HMIMSSA:
Yes, Patrick Vuillaume.

BUNNING:
And so when you applied for the Social Security card, you used the false name and then you filled in the document, applying for the Social Security number with a false mother's maiden name?

HMIMSSA:
Yes, he did not say anything. So I give different mother's maiden name and I give my real mother's maiden name.

BUNNING:
We tried very hard to change the rules at the Social Security Administration, that you would never have gotten a Social Security number had some of the changes we asked for gone in. The fact of the matter is your suggestion of a chip or a fingerprint has been suggested to the Social Security Administration for the last 10 years that I know of. And none of the advice -- we're going to have to pass a law to make it work, that requires them to use chips identification and also to use fingerprints on the document that they send in to get a Social Security.

Once you get the Social Security card, the whole identity for you opens up.

HMIMSSA:
Yes.

BUNNING:
You can go to work. You can get the driver's license. You can do everything else. So the Social Security card is the key card in getting other false documents, correct?

HMIMSSA:
That's right.

BUNNING:
So maybe my good chairman is listening very closely to that, that the Social Security card is the key for falsification of all other documents. So we've got to make it a heck of a lot tougher on the Social Security Administration to make sure that illegal aliens that come into this country with black market passports are not able to just apply to the Social Security Administration and get a Social Security number. Because once that has happened, then they can falsify all other documents.

GRASSLEY:
I think, Senator Bunning, that it's a sad commentary for me to say I think we've known that for a long time. And maybe it takes this hearing, plus everything else that has happened over the two years, to wake up to that.

And in our next panel, we will have a chance to ask our own government officials the extent to which they consider that as serious as what you just said and whether or not any actions are being taken accordingly. And obviously, if there aren't actions taken accordingly, you and I would have a responsibility to make sure that those actions do take place.

BUNNING:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
One other question. In your association with this cell, there were only four other people involved?

HMIMSSA:
Yes.

BUNNING:
Never more? No stragglers that would come in and leave? But only four people involved that you lived with?

HMIMSSA:
Yes, sir.

BUNNING:
Four. And you were captured and incarcerated quite a bit before the cell leader, then?

HMIMSSA:
That's right.

BUNNING:
OK. Thank you very much for your testimony.