MSNBC Hardball with Chris Matthews - Transcript

MSNBC Hardball with Chris Matthews - Transcript

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MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, David Gregory from the White House. Senator Joe Biden is the ranking Democrat in the United States Senate on the issue of foreign relations. Senator Biden, thank you for joining us.

What do you make of this, is this pyrotechnics, is this PR.

Propaganda? What is this trip all about.

SEN. JOE BIDEN (D-DE), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: It could be but I hope not. I hope when he went over, he went over and talked with Maliki about what the plan is, that is that they got. Look, everyone agrees on three things, Chris. One, in order for them to be able to provide security, they have to get rid of the thugs in the military and they have to get rid of the sectarian violence and so if he went over and said look, are you on the same page with us, we‘re going to in fact deal with the militias and you‘re going to deal with us, stick with us, then that‘s good.

The second thing everybody knows, you have to get the Sunnis to buy in, give them a piece of the action. You have to amend the constitution as the constitution calls for and you have to give the Sunnis some of the revenue from the oil.

If they said that to them as well that‘s a good thing. And the third thing is you have to keep the neighbors out and that‘s I hope he said look, you‘d better support us when we call for a regional conference whereby the major powers sit down and say stay out.

If he did those three things, then he is turning lemons into some lemonade. We‘ll be able to leave in the next 18 months and leave something behind, but if he didn‘t do those things, mark my words, we‘re going to be back here in September with the same carnage on your program and it is going to have been for naught.

MATTHEWS: A little trouble I don‘t mind, senator. I am not worried about having the carnage here. I am worried about there. Let me ask you about the politics of this trip. You might have noticed there is a political piece to this.

This Thursday, the House of Representatives, led by John Boehner, their new leader over there, is going to have one of these up or down votes that‘s made to basically cut the Democrats off by saying do you support the president‘s war on terrorism over in Iraq, conflating the issue of terrorism with fighting in that war in Iraq, which the American people don‘t really buy anymore, that connection.

And at the same time, the president said today to set up that vote, he said we‘re going to fight the terrorists over there rather than here. It seems like he‘s leading the Democrats to a slaughter on the House floor this Thursday, two days from now.

BIDEN: Well, I hope—you know, look, Chris, I think you‘re right, he has conflated the two things. Lately, he‘s talked more reasonably. Lately, he‘s talked about the need for the Iraqis to be able to take control and all these other things you mentioned.

Everybody in America knows that this had nothing to do with 9/11, that there wasn‘t massive terror infiltration before we went in and so on, so I hope he doesn‘t do that, because he‘ll lose guys like me he and he‘ll lose people who want to see us succeed.

I want him to succeed. He succeeds in Iraq, America succeeds for Lord‘s sake, and there‘s a willingness now to make sure that we take this one shot to get it right. And I hope he doesn‘t do that. I really do.

MATTHEWS: Well, I think he‘s setting up another nut cutter, to use a street expression. I think he‘s out there to prove the Democrats—to separate them from their interest.

Let me ask you about this Rove guy. He‘s back in action. He‘s not going to be indicted, but the president said three years ago when this thing started about this leak of the identity of an undercover CIA agent, Valerie Plame, the president said this guy—anybody who dealt with leaking is going to be dealt with.

And now we found out that Karl Rove leaked twice, we found out that Scooter Libby leaked twice. He‘s facing the judge. Don‘t you think the president—well, let me ask you an open-ended question. Does the president still owe an accounting to us about Karl Rove?

BIDEN: Are you kidding me?

MATTHEWS: Well, is he going to do anything about it? He said there‘s nobody leaking, and then we found out he leaked.

BIDEN: Oh, he‘s not going to do—I know he said it. He‘s said a lot of things he‘s not going to do. As my mother would say, God love him.

You know, look, you know, the federal prosecutor said he didn‘t break the

law. That‘s good enough for me in terms of the law. The second question

MATTHEWS: How about the politics? How about the responsibility of the president?

BIDEN: ... is does the president keep his word. He‘s not going to keep his word on this. I mean, look, it‘s not going to happen.

MATTHEWS: Well, he was into this see no evil, hear no evil thing. Oh, I can‘t believe somebody around here might have been leaking and now he finds out the guy has leaked, and since he‘s not going to jail, he‘s a fine guy. I don‘t get the connection.

BIDEN: He‘s OK now.

MATTHEWS: Most of us aren‘t in jail, we‘re not all fine guys for not being convicted of felonies.

BIDEN: Well, look, I just think—so far, Karl Rove‘s advice on the war, Karl Rove‘s advice on energy, Karl Rove‘s advice on the rest is just fine by me, politically.

MATTHEWS: How do you see November shaping up? Since the president is being political, I‘ll ask you. This November, the Democrats talk a lot about taking the House back, they talk about an outside shot at the Senate. When Zarqawi got caught, did that give the president enough of a boost so the people have this debonair attitude about this war for a couple of weeks. Will it last until November?

BIDEN: Well, you know, it‘s going to—look, that old Saxon expression, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If the president doesn‘t change direction, like he did in Iran—he did change direction.

MATTHEWS: Yes, he did.

BIDEN: There‘s division in the administration in Iran. He finally picked the right course. If he doesn‘t do the same thing in Iraq, there‘s going to be chaos in the streets in Iraq. There‘s still going to be the same problem, and this momentary victory—tactical victory with Zarqawi will be a little bit like capturing Saddam.

It will be a nice memory, good thing to have happen, but not affect the safety and well-being of anybody in the United States of America or any troop on the ground.

And think about what you said before we came in with David Gregory. Here the president of the United States tells it‘s better off if Iraq and yet, everybody talks about—and I‘ve been there six times. Every single time I go in, it‘s more dangerous.

They‘re talking about the president taking the dangerous trip inside the Green Zone. So much for it being better. If it‘s better if September, he‘ll do better. If it‘s like it is now or worse, it won‘t matter.

MATTHEWS: Great. Thank you very much, Senator Joe Biden of Delaware, the ranking Democrat on Foreign Relations.

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