MSNBC Hardball with Chris Matthews - Transcript

MSNBC Hardball with Chris Matthews - Transcript

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GREGORY: Welcome back to HARDBALL. With skyrocketing gas prices, are Americans being treated fairly at the pumps? Today President Bush says he's going to find out. An investigation continues. He's asked the Justice Department to look into price gouging by the oil companies and he's temporarily suspended environmental rules so that more fuel finds its way to gas stations sooner. For a look at the impact of the president's fuel policy on the state level, we turn to Governor Ed Rendell, governor of Pennsylvania, and Republican Governor Jodi Rell of Connecticut.

Governor Rendell, how high is gas now in Pennsylvania?

GOV. ED RENDELL (D), PENNSYLVANIA: Well, we are about three dollars a gallon across the state. That's in a very few short months since the beginning of the year, up 70 cents. And believe me, not all of that is accounted for by what the increase has been per barrel.

GREGORY: And the president talked about—so what's going on then, if it's not just market forces, specifically what's happening?

RENDELL: It's price gouging. There's no doubt in my mind. If all this was being driven by the increase in price of the barrel, oil company profits would be relatively flat, and as you know they're off the board, they're incredible. We have to stop those profits and give some of the money back to the American driver.

GREGORY: Governor Rell, what do you think, what are you seeing in your state?

GOV. JODI RELL ®, CONNECTICUT: Well, actually our prices are about $3.01 a gallon. They were this morning when I went by. And about $3.26 for mid grade gasoline. I will tell you that's 34 cents higher than a year ago. And a month ago the price was about $2.58, $2.60 on average. So we are seeing the same thing.

And I just want to comment on Governor Rendell, he's absolutely right. These oil profits, if you will, the oil company profits right now are simply obscene. I heard your two guests earlier in talking about this. But I will tell you that when you are looking at an ExxonMobil at a $36 profit, if we can guarantee that money will go back to the consumers, then we need to do everything possible to make sure that happens.

GREGORY: So what would you like to see now? Governor Rendell, the president talked today of having governors work with the Justice Department in a way that they haven't before to investigate this. What steps should be taken?

RENDELL: Well, we're happy to do that, and the president's right in that limited area. But let's pass an excess profit tax bill, let's put that money into a fund, let's, by the way, repeal the subsidies. Can you imagine giving these oil companies over $2 billion worth of subsidies when al of this is going on? Let's put this in a fund and next year at tax time let the American driver get it back in a cash refund, number one.

Number two, this is time for the president to show real leadership. He's talked about it, now we've got to do it. Let's go full boar on the production of U.S. alternative energy, whether it's clean coal gas, weather it's bio-fuels, weather it's hybrid cars. The president should order 50 percent of the federal fleet in two years to be hybrid cars. We've done close to that in Pennsylvania.

GREGORY: How has that worked out? How have people responded to the government telling them what to do about how to drive and what to drive?

RENDELL: Well, for example, we give a $500 cash grant as you buy a hybrid car in Pennsylvania. It's very popular.

GREGORY: Governor Rell, that's what the president has talked about on a federal level but with no mandate. Is it time to put some teeth into some of these incentives?

RELL: You talked about the $2 billion, and I think, again, the president had made that a key component of his remarks today. The other thing I would also point out, and Governor Rendell alluded to in his state, we are doing something similar. We are also taking the lead right here in Connecticut.

We just put 575 hybrid cars in our state vehicle fleet. I think that's important because they get 60 miles to the gallon, which is very impressive for us, but it also sends a very clear message. We are concerned about conservation, and we're doing everything in our power to make sure that people do that.

In addition to some of the things that's already been talked about, I have asked our Congressmen and women to look at and encourage the elimination of the 54 cent tariff on ethanol. I mean, right now should we be protecting domestic products when in fact we could get it cheaper if we eliminated that 54 cent tariff? I frankly think the American people would say, do anything you can to reduce prices of gasoline.

GREGORY: Governor Rendell?

RENDELL: I think temporarily that's a good idea. Remember, the long-term solution here is to produce in America, American sources of energy. We can do it. We've got coal to beat the band, we have farm products, agriculture waste, cellulosic wood chip, ethanol, we can be done. We can do what Brazil did. If the country of Brazil in 25 years can achieve energy independence, import no more foreign oil, we can do the same thing.

GREGORY: Governor Rendell, if you want to take those steps then why not also hear the president out on finding more domestic sources of oil, like drilling in ANWR?

RENDELL: Everyone knows that eventually oil is not a dependable source of fuel because it will cost more and more to dig deeper. I'm willing to look at every possible form of energy, but let's start producing alternatives and renewables. Let's use what we have.

GREGORY: Governor Rell, you are sitting there in Connecticut. When you look at Washington and you look at the debate as we're seeing now, which is domestic exploration versus price gouging, it becomes so partisan and Americans sit back and hear all of this, do you start to wonder where all this went so wrong?

RELL: You know, you talk about price gouging and I hear the comments out there and people are sort of—you know, I get the impression that they shrug their shoulders and they say, big deal, I can report it and nobody cares. Nobody is paying attention.

Here in Connecticut, we had 68 phone calls when we set up the hotline on price gouging. That happened over a two-week period. Those 68 phone calls where followed up, every single one of them. And people really now believe, hey, people are listening to what we say out here. I drive by a gas station, and instead of going up two cents, it went up 20 cents. Something wrong with this picture.

If we can do something about it on a state level, and believe me when I tell you, every statehouse is trying to address this issue, so is the White House.

RENDELL: And the key thing is, you've heard Governor Rell, a Republican, and me, a Democrat—we agree on what needs to be done. Washington has got to get its act together and respond to this in a bipartisan fashion, and the president has to take the lead.

GREGORY: All right. We are going to take a quick break here. When we come back, we'll come back with Governor Ed Rendell of Pennsylvania, and Governor Jodi Rell of Connecticut.

And later, the former head of the CIA cover operations in Europe. He claims an Iraqi source told the CIA that Iraq had no WMDs before the war. He says the White House ignored the information. You're watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GREGORY: Welcome back to HARDBALL as we continue our conversation on skyrocketing—skyrocketing I should say, gas prices with Governor Jodi Rell of Connecticut and Governor Ed Rendell of Pennsylvania. I actually want to go on to talk about another hot button issue here, governors, that is not just a border state issue anymore, and that is, of course, immigration reform. It's touching all states in the country.

Governor Rell, you heard the president yesterday, again, making the pitch for a guest worker program, and saying something very specific, very pointed against members of his own party, which is that it's simply unrealistic to try to deport 11 or 12 million illegal workers here in the United States. Do you agree or disagree with that?

RELL: Well, you know, I do agree. And I have to tell you that I actually had this conversation early today. I was at a Chamber of Commerce meeting, and the question came up. What do we do? And I still believe that every time we document legal aliens, we need to get them into a program where we would be able to help them work out the right paperwork, get on the right track, if you will, for becoming a citizen of the United states.

Too often, we simply throw up our hands and say, well, what can you do about it? But once they're documented as illegal, I think that we can—there are plenty of places where we'd be able to literally get them the assistance that they need to make sure that they are here in this country legally, and the sooner we start that process, the better we will all be served for it.

GREGORY: Governor Rendell, the president also talked about treating illegal workers differently based on how long they've been in the country. Is that fair, if you've been here longer than five years, you have more of an opportunity to get in the back of the line sooner for citizenship, less than two years, you go right back to your country of origin? Does that sound fair?

RENDELL: It's probably not fair, but there has to be some dividing line in doing this. This is one area where I do support the president. I think his instincts are very good. I think we have to have a guest worker statute. That's the fair and the right thing to do.

And in many areas of the country—not so much Pennsylvania, but in many areas of the country, the immigrant workers are the only ones who will fill some of the low-wage jobs that are very difficult and arduous jobs. So I think the guest worker statute is fair to the immigrants who come in. It's also fair to the American business people who need this type of resource.

But in the broader sense, we've got to look at the whole question. We've got to—I agree with Jodi. These people should be put on some track, but maybe the guest worker statute is that you don't become a citizen, you are not on the line to become a citizen.

You are a guest worker for two or three years and then you have to go back to your country. I think we should work out something that's fair to everyone and doesn't penalize the American businesses who have become to depend on these.

But I also think if we're really going to get somewhere in this country economically, we've got to look at raising the minimum wage. I mean, that's something that's been out of this debate and it shouldn't be out of this debate. We should raise the federal minimum wage. It hasn't been done in almost a decade.

GREGORY: Governor Rell, a lot of Republicans, a lot of conservatives, argue that you cannot begin to deal with illegal workers who are here without first dealing with border security issues. Porous borders allow more illegal immigrants to come into the country and it's a short-term fix if you don't deal with that root cause.

RELL: And they're absolutely correct. You do have to deal with the root cause. Let me just share with you that, in Connecticut, we estimate that about 11 percent of our population are immigrants. I'm not saying illegal or legal immigrants, just immigrants. How do you divide that? How do you go to say, for example, are you here legally?

Frankly, that's wrong. And we know that. But when it is documented that you have someone in your state illegally, then you need to address that and you need to address it at that time.

GREGORY: Governor Rell, I've got to cut you off. I apologize. We are out of time. Governor Ed Rendell and Governor Jodi Rell as well, thank you very much for being here.

RELL: Thank you very much.

RENDELL: Thank you.

GREGORY: And up next, retired CIA agent Tyler Drumheller. He was head of covert operations in Europe before the Iraq war, and he says a high-level Iraqi source told the CIA that Iraq had no WMDs. The White House, he claims, ignored him.

You're watching HARDBALL only on MSNBC.

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