Hardball - Transcript

SHOW: HARDBALL 21:00

HEADLINE: HARDBALL For July 17, 2003

BYLINE: Chris Matthews; Jim Miklaszewski; Norah O'Donnell; Lawrence O'Donnell

GUESTS: Bob Graham; Bob Dornan; Robert Baer; Arlen Specter; Saxby Chambliss; Lindsey Graham; Mark Dayton; Richard Shelby

HIGHLIGHT:
HARDBALL debate: What's the political import of the error in the State of the Union speech? And in the "Political Buzz," will Blair's visit to the U.S. help diffuse the heat against Bush?

BODY:
MATTHEWS: Senator Arlen Specter is a Republican from Pennsylvania. Senator Lindsey Graham is a Republican from South Carolina and a member of the Armed Services Committee. Senator Mark Dayton is a Democrat from Minnesota and a member of the Armed Services Committee. Senator Saxby Chambliss is a Republican from Georgia and a member of the Armed Services Committee and the Intelligence Committee.

Senator Saxby, NBC has learned the CIA official, Alan Foley, particularly warned the NSC official, the deputy of the National Security Council, Robert Joseph, that this British intelligence report had so many problems with it, that the U.S. CIA had tried to get the British not to use it. Why would the president's deputy in the Security Council put in the president's mouth something that he had been warned by the CIA was not useful? Was not true and was not reliable? Why he would do something like that? Who would lead him to do?

SENATOR SAXBY CHAMBLISS, (R)-GEORGIA: Chris, obviously I can't talk about the details, what was talked about in the hearing yesterday. But let me say this. First of all, it was Director Tenet's obligation to review that speech and to look at any intelligence issues. He has taken responsibility for it. I'm not going to beat that dead horse.

But, the fact of the matter is, there was discussion, as there is in every discussion between the White House and the intelligence community about intelligence information in the speech. As to why it was done, I can't say. But I assure you, Chairman Robert said yesterday, we're going to follow this dog until we get to the tail and find out exactly what happened.

MATTHEWS: Well, Senator Saxby, do you want to follow the dog all the way to the question of whether who in the White House got this guy Joseph to take the action he did?

CHAMBLISS: Well, certainly we know from yesterday that there was discussion about what was going to be in the president's speech. We know there was conversation with National Security advisors, with the CIA. So it's important that we take what we found yesterday and pursue that back to see exactly where it does lead. So yes, we're going to go where we need to to find out just what happened.

MATTHEWS: Senator Graham, in the last presidency, we had a big issue, especially in programs like this one about the president's honesty and whether he has candor in telling people the truth. Why did the president dodge the question today in his press conference as to whether he was willing to stand behind what he said in the State of the Union about the arms deal -- or the reported arms deal the with Niger?

SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM (R)-SOUTH CAROLINA: I think it is part of the president to remind us why we went to Iraq, why we were there and not get into the weeds about 16 words. But, it's important that we find out what the CIA told the White House official and how the White House official responded.

But, the big elephant in the room no one is talking about, which astonishes me, is that Prime Minister Blair came to Washington, D.C. today and said that he stood behind the allegation that Saddam Hussein was in Africa to procure uranium. I want to know that. I mean, to me, that's an interesting assertion. And I don't want to call him a liar. I believe at the end of the day that he was in Africa trying to procure uranium and we're forgetting who is the bad guy. It's not Bush. It is Saddam Hussein.

MATTHEWS: What do you make of the testimony by the CIA official, Mr. Alan Foley yesterday in the Senate Committee that the British report is inaccurate? It is not useful. It is not reliable. What do you make of that?

GRAHAM: Well, I believe Tony Blair. Tony...

MATTHEWS: You don't believe our CIA? You believe the British MI-5?

GRAHAM: No. No. Here's what I'm saying. I'm saying the MI-5 and the CIA, I don't think have sat down and talked about this in any great detail. But one thing we found out...

MATTHEWS: Then why don't we hire MI-5 and get rid of our CIA if they are better at this?

GRAHAM: No. Well, why does the British prime minister stand up in front of the world and say -- and say -- and says, I stand behind the accusation, the allegation?

MATTHEWS: Because it is his. He's defending his people. He is defending his bureaucracy.

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: Well now, he's -- no. Well, he's putting his credibility on the line.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask -- let me ask Senator Dayton now. What do you believe is the issue here? Is it the fallibility of the CIA, the failure of the chief of the CIA, Mr. Tenet, to even read the speech? Or is it a political movement within the White House that pushes past facts? That ignores warnings from the bureaucracy of the CIA and pushes ahead with the ideological agenda to go to war. What's the issue?

SENATOR MARK DAYTON, (D)-MINNESOTA: Those are the two issues. The one is, can we rely on the information we're getting from our intelligence organizations. And the second is, when they provide that information, is it being presented truthfully to the Congress and to..

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: What do you see the problem is?

DAYTON: ...and to the American people.

I...

MATTHEWS: Is it the bureaucrats of the CIA who didn't really want the war or is it the ideologues in the White House who really did? Whose fault was it...

(CROSSTALK)

DAYTON: I think the State of the Union is the tip of the iceberg. I think from the beginning, when Vice President Cheney came out the end of August last year, said there's no doubt that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction, that there was a repeated, by the top level officials in the administration, exaggerations and representations of fact and certainty that was being presented, at least to us in the top secret briefings I was in, as a probability or uncertainty.

MATTHEWS: Do you believe the vice president and his office is pushing -- was pushing this war to the point of really pushing aside facts to get the war started?

DAYTON: I think that they had their conclusions reached from the beginning and they wanted information that would support those conclusions.

MATTHEWS: Here's what I got from the vice president's office this afternoon. A spokesman for the vice president told me late this afternoon that neither the vice president nor his chief of staff, Lewis Libby, were aware of Joe Wilson's trip to Niger or were informed of the trip or aware of its conclusions or saw a report of Wilson's trip to the CIA until after the press reported it this spring.

DAYTON: Well, then, Mr. Wilson says he went at the vice president's behest,. I can't reconcile those two differences.

MATTHEWS: Mr. Wilson told me this afternoon that the CIA told him that the vice president was informed of the results of the trip. So there we have a contrast. Senator Specter, your thoughts. Is it the CIA bureaucracy that is at fault here, or is it the ideologues working with the president who pushed the war, notwithstanding the facts?

SENATOR ARLEN SPECTER (R)--PENNSYLVANIA: Well, We haven't ascertained what the facts are yet, Chris. The basic question here is was Saddam looking for nuclear materials in Africa? The president was very careful in the State of the Union speech to say explicitly that the information came from Great Britain.

Now, the British authorities, the prime minister and the foreign minister there, back it up. What I think we need to do is make the determination as to what the facts are. Did Saddam really look for nuclear materials in Africa? Beyond that, we need to make a determination as to what happened within the CIA and the National Security Council to lead to president to leave that statement in his speech if it was suspect.

Those are the real questions, and the Senate passed a resolution last Thursday to get to the bottom of it. I think we will.

GRAHAM: Chris, if I may.

MATTHEWS: Sure, Senator.

GRAHAM: The worst thing that could happen as far as I know right now is that you had somebody who is overzealous in trying to make a case that probably didn't need any padding at all. If you assume the worst case, that somebody didn't like no for an answer and wanted to put something extra, there is no suggestion that President Bush tried to mislead anybody.

And I don't know what happened between conversation with the CIA and the White House staffer but I know Vice President Cheney didn't bury a centrifuge in the back of a scientist's yard in Iraq. The idea that Saddam Hussein has been trying to procure nuclear weapons should stand on its own. He's been doing it for about 20 years now. And I would like to know why Prime Minister Blair says, to this day, that he was in Africa.

The nuclear weapons procurement activities of Saddam Hussein was real and would I like to know all the facets of it. But, we didn't go to the war because of those 16 words. We went to war because of a man who was very dangerous to his own people, to the region, and our way of life who has done a lot of bad things over a long period of time.

MATTHEWS: Let me go to the Saxby Chambliss. Senator, the nuclear fact here. I keep going back to this because I know people who thought the nuclear issue was the one that really threatened us. Did you think it was an important part of the president's case for war and therefore he has to defend it even now?

CHAMBLISS: I really didn't think it was very significant. Colin Powell was very careful not to emphasize it in his presentation to the United Nations. And I think all along that all of us who were involved in the intelligence community were concentrating on the fact that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction which primarily meant chemical and biological weapons. It did include the possibility of nuclear weapons but that was never at the forefront from a weapons of mass destruction standpoint.

MATTHEWS: Ok. Senator Chambliss, thank you very much. You have to leave right now. The other Senators are staying with us. We'll come back beginning with Senator Dayton. Please stay with us. We are talking about a very important question tonight.