CNN Late Edition - Transcript

CNN Late Edition - Transcript
Sunday, August 28, 2005

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BLITZER: Hurricane Katrina, it's moving toward New Orleans, toward Louisiana, Mississippi. Winds right now about 175 miles-per- hour. It's clearly a category five. We're watching this very dangerous hurricane. We'll have a complete update momentarily.

We're also standing by to hear from President Bush about the approaching storm. He's in Crawford, Texas. We'll bring you his remarks once he makes them. He's also expected to speak about the Iraqi draft constitution. In the meantime, joining us here in Washington, the Republican Chairman of the U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee, Pat Roberts of Kansas. He's also a member of the Armed Services Committee. And in New York, one of the Intelligence Committee's top Democrats, Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon.

Senators, thanks very much for joining use.

Senator Roberts, let me begin with you and get your quick reaction to this draft Iraqi constitution. Are you satisfied in what the Iraqis have done, mostly the Kurds and Shia? It looks like most of the Sunni negotiators are not necessarily on board.

SEN. PAT ROBERTS (R), KANSAS: Well, I expected to hear that from the Sunnis. I know they've had some spokesmen there that are very fervent in their position.

But I have the draft right here. I'm rather amazed at the effort toward consensus. I think there has been a lot of give on the part of the Shias and the Kurds.

I think it's a pretty good document once you really read through it.

Some of the concerns I had were certainly addressed. Of course, I'm not the one to be making that decision, but I don't think we'll know. I think the ambassador was right. You just had him on the program. It's going to take several days and two weeks and a real campaign up to October 15 to prove to the people of Iraq that this is a good constitution and they should pass it.

BLITZER: What do you think Senator Wyden? You've had reports about what's included, what's not included.

SEN. RON WYDEN (D), OREGON: Well, I heard our ambassador, Wolf, talk about if the Sunnis buy into this document. This is a big "if" because there are outstanding questions that go to the heart of their concerns, particularly regional autonomy, oil revenue.

You need a constitution there that's based on sound policy and not Scotch tape.

Based on the reports that I have heard, I remain concerned particularly about the rights of women. We're going to want to continue to pursue democracy there, but if you leave women behind it's pretty hard to do that.

BLITZER: It does have all of the earmarks potentially, Senator Roberts, of some problems for women if in fact Islamic law, the sharia, rules the day as opposed to the more secular laws.

ROBERTS: Well, there is no sharia here in this document. And there's 25 percent of the parliament is being held for women representatives.

In addition, they can have a choice between if they have a problem with marriage or divorce or say inheritance, you can go either to civil law, or you can go to religious law. So I don't see some of the concerns that both Ron and I were concerned about.

And then I know you have Islamic law what as...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A primary source.

ROBERTS: Yes, a primary source. But you have two others enshrined right on top of it. And that's basically a bill of rights, including women and also enshrining democracy. So I think it is a (inaudible) kind of thing, if I can use that term.

BLITZER: Here's, Senator Wyden, I want to get your reaction to what your colleague -- you Democratic colleague, Senator Biden, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee said earlier today on ABC. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: What the bottom line is, at the end of the day, if the Sunnis and that entire portion of the country opts out of this process, that's a formula for civil war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Do you agree with Senator Biden that if the Sunnis are not on board, the Sunnis largely dominate insurgency, that this insurgency could spill out and become a full-scale civil war?

WYDEN: I hope Senator Biden isn't right, but it ought to be a concern.

Look, Iraq of late, parts of it looked like train wreck. And maybe that's a step up in characterizing it that way. We've got barbers with their throats slit, death squads.

The administration, Wolf, tries to portray this as just one of two approaches. You can either stay the course with them, or in effect cut and run.

I think there are other alternatives that ought to be pursued. For example, one that I'll be exploring in our intelligence committee is we've set deadlines for the Iraqi's on a constitution. We set deadlines with respect to elections. I think we ought to be asking about setting a deadline with respect to training their security forces. That is a prerequisite to being able to bring our troops home. I think -- I want to be constructive. I think that's the kind of issue we ought to be looking at.

BLITZER: I want to just alert our viewers and the senators, our guests, that the president will be speaking momentarily. We're going listen in to what he says both about Hurricane Katrina as well as the draft constitution. Then we'll resume our discussion.

Senator Russ Feingold, your Democratic colleague, Senator Roberts, said, "there's a deepening feeling of dismay in the country about the way things are going in Iraq. I think not talking about end games is playing into our enemies' hands."

And he has proposed by the end of next year a full withdraw of U.S. troops, just give notice to everybody to the Iraqis, you have next year basically to get the job done.

ROBERTS: I think that would be a very bad mistake. I think that goes right to our troops. I think they scratch their head and say do we have the resolve and commitment to really see this through?

I had a staff sergeant come up to me as well as the top brass and the other people that we met with last Sunday when I was in Baghdad and also in Iraq and other areas, and basically he said tell the Congress, Senator, don't rush to failure.

And I think now is the time for resolve and commitment. A very critical juncture. I understand what he is saying, but that message not only goes to our troops, it goes to the Iraqis who have to scratch their heads as well.

It also goes to the terrorists.

And if you did that, and just simply left, I think probably Senator Biden's comment would evolve. You would have civil war, and you'd have a real crisis, and you'd have Iran dominating the area, and whatever progress we've made in the Middle East would be on hold.

And our resolve and our commitment, whether it would be Russia or China or North Korea or any other of the hot spots around the world, I think we'd be in a lot of trouble. Plus, I think we would embolden the terrorists.

BLITZER: Senator Wyden, I want you to respond to that, and as you do, I may have to interrupt you if we hear from the president, but go ahead.

WYDEN: I'm suggesting an alternative, Wolf.

It's one thing to talk about an immediate troop withdrawal. I've said deadlines can be useful. We set them for the constitution. We set them for the elections. Why not say in an area where we don't seem to be making a lot of progress in terms of training the Iraqis for their own security, let's set a deadline there. You've got to get them trained to get to the question Russ Feingold wants to explore.

I think there are constructive alternatives in between what the administration is saying, just stay the course, continue to accept their assessment of what's going on, and in effect what they try to say is a cut and run strategy. I've suggested an alternative.

BLITZER: Do you want to respond to that, Senator?

ROBERTS: Well, I wanted to respond in talking to General Petraeus and General Casey and the people who are in charge of the retraining. We have 180,000 out there now in terms of security forces and police. There are about 36 battalions in the fight. They're in the Anbar Province. They are not only helping the Marines, they're not only in the fight, they are leading the fight.

And we have an area of Baghdad in the Sunni Triangle that the police have made safe, and we have probably about ten battalions of them that are actually working. Now, we're not there yet. But to say you're going to set a deadline for training, people have to be trained.

BLITZER: Hold on one second. I think the president is about to speak in Crawford, Texas. Are we getting that video? Are we getting that picture from Crawford, Texas? Let's listen to the president. We're getting his audio.

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BLITZER: So there it is. The president of the United States speaking live in Crawford, Texas, before reporters. There will be videotape of that that will be made available to us, but it's going to take some time to get that videotape from the president's ranch out to our transmission location.

That's why we heard that audio -- the, shall we say, not so great audio quality, the result of the White House making that audio available. But we'll get the actual videotape probably in a half hour or so from now.

The president urging everyone to get out of the way of Hurricane Katrina, to move very, very quickly out of harm's path. This is a category five hurricane, as we know, approaching Louisiana and Mississippi.

And the president praising the draft Iraqi constitution, calling it an inspiration, saying Iraqis and the rest of the world can be proud of what they have achieved.

We'll have much more coverage on both of these stories.

Our senators are standing by as well.

We'll take a quick break. Much more "LATE EDITION" right after this.

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BLITZER: Welcome back.

We're continuing our conversation with Senator Pat Roberts, the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and Senator Ron Wyden, a Democrat of Oregon, a member of that committee.

Senator Roberts, we heard the president call this draft Iraqi constitution an inspiration -- the Iraqis can be very proud of it.

Do you think those are words he might come to regret in the next six to 12 months if, in fact, civil war erupts, if Shiites declare, in effect, an Islamic state -- a fundamentalist Islamic state -- create an autonomous region in the south with links to Iran?

Those are some of the worst-case fears that clearly could emerge.

ROBERTS: Well, that's a result of it.

I know it's described by the State Department here as some of the most far-reaching democratic and human rights commitments that exist in any constitution in this part of the world. That's true.

BLITZER: That's on paper, though, but in practical terms...

(CROSSTALK)

ROBERTS: I don't know if the Sunnis are going to buy this.

He made two good points, I think. One is the fear of the spike of terrorist attacks, which I think we are preparing for.

And then, the difficulty in getting the vote. There are 18 provinces there in Iraq. Fifteen are doing OK in terms of safety. It's the three on the Anbar Province and then in the Sunni Triangle that are not.

But only 51 percent of three provinces have to vote against this and it goes down.

BLITZER: No, two thirds.

ROBERTS: No, it's 51 percent.

BLITZER: Oh, really?

Because I was told it was two thirds in three provinces -- if two thirds majority vote against the constitution...

ROBERTS: No, that was one of the consensus things. Only 51 percent now.

BLITZER: All right, well, maybe that has changed.

ROBERTS: And so consequently, now you get 51 percent to say no, the whole thing goes down. I don't know who put that together, but it should have been six of 18 or four of 18 instead of three.

BLITZER: Well, that was originally -- the three was to give the Kurds, in effect, veto power, because they have three provinces in the north.

ROBERTS: I understand that, but it's going to be a major public relations effort and that's the nicest way I can put it -- or campaign -- to sell this.

Although, once the Sunnis really take a look at this and say, all right, there have been some concessions here and they punted on the federalism, either this, or civil war? My word, I would think they would take this.

BLITZER: Let's let Senator Wyden button this up for us because we're almost out of time.

WYDEN: Well, I wish I could be as optimistic as the president.

I hope events unfold as he suggests, but I'm not yet there. I heard the president, for example, say that some Sunnis were in support of this.

My sense is that there is a lot of opposition among Sunnis, that this is going to be a very heavy lift to bring them on board.

And at the end of the day, Wolf, the real question is: We have so many young men and women in harm's way; we've lost so many American lives already. I think Americans will be very troubled that after deposing Saddam Hussein -- we're all glad he's behind bars -- that we could end up with the Islamic clerics in the driver's seat. That's very troubling.

BLITZER: Senator Wyden, unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it right there.

Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon, Senator Pat Roberts, joining us from Kansas. A good discussion on an important issue. We'll have to wait and see what happens on the ground.

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