CNN Lou Dobbs Tonight - Transcript
Wednesday, July 27, 2005
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DOBBS: On Capitol Hill tonight, the House of Representatives will vote on CAFTA, we're told. The Central American Free Trade Agreement, it is impossible to say at this hour definitively which way the vote will go, at least according to our sources.
Tonight, two House members on different sides of this CAFTA issue: Republican Congressman Jim Kolbe of Arizona, he's pushing and pushing hard for the passage of CAFTA. And Democratic Congressman Sherrod Brown of Ohio who is fighting hard as well, against CAFTA.
Gentlemen, good to have you here.
GROUP: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Congressman Kolbe, you think this vote -- the president shows up on Capitol Hill today. He's apparently making lots of deals. Have you got the votes?
REP. JIM KOLBE (R), ARIZONA: I don't think we have the votes at this hour, but I think we will have them when we get around to having the vote, Yes. I think they will be there and I think they will be there, because I think there's at least two things, at least on the Republican side, that people recognize. (INAUDIBLE) More importantly, I think it's the national security issue and this is a very important national security vote.
DOBBS: You're telling us that CAFTA, five Central American countries and the Dominican Republic, are critical to national security? KOLBE: You bet. You bet. I was here 20 years ago when we had the Contra battles and at that time, we had five totalitarian governments in those countries in Central America, right wing and left wing.
Today we have five nascent democracies. The last thing in the world we need right now with Castro and Chavez -- Hugo Chavez -- President Chavez in Venezuela, is to turn those countries into battleground for those -- for Chavez and Castro.
DOBBS: Congressman Brown, given that it is a national security issue, how can you possible resist CAFTA?
REP. SHERROD BROWN (D), OHIO: Well, it's not a national security issue. It started off as a trade issue and they couldn't convince the majority of Congress that this trade issue made sense. Then they said it was a national security and they're not really convincing people there.
Jim himself said that the only way to pass this is -- he was quoted in a newspaper -- a couple of newspapers, "is to break arms in thousands of places." And that's what they're going to have to do on the vote tonight. They're cutting deals. They're making promises and they're using hard-ball politics to try to force a trade agreement through Congress that a wide spectrum of this society doesn't want and a majority of congressmen don't want.
DOBBS: Let me ask you straightforwardly, gentlemen. We have had the experience with NAFTA. It is a very tough sell, given what has happened in environmental controls, in Mexico; in labor protection; in the loss of jobs in this country; in the trade deficit, which is nine times as large today with Mexico as when we began. Against that backdrop, can you assure us, Congressman Kolbe, that Americans will not lose jobs; that this is not an outsourcing agreement and that we won't see more flight of production and jobs to Central America and the Dominican Republic?
KOLBE: Well, Lou, it's not an outsourcing agreement at all. I'd point out that these countries already have the benefits under the Caribbean Basin Initiative...
DOBBS: Right.
KOLBE: Which has been renewed every three years, to have access to our markets. This just makes it permanent, so that they can make an investment in, let's say, a factory to sew denim pants or to sew shirts. And we'll be doing that here with textiles coming from the United States, instead of from China, where it's 90 percent going to be Chinese output there.
So, I don't think it's an outsourcing agreement and I don't agree with you about NAFTA. We've created 21 million new jobs since 1994. Sure, some jobs have been lost, but on the whole -- I won't claim that every job that's created came from NAFTA and I don't think you should claim that every job that's lost came from NAFTA. DOBBS: Well, I certainly don't. But then I would also point out that 22 million jobs were created in the '90s and we have seen a bare trickle, in historical terms, of jobs created in the past five years. I'm not sure why you took '94, other than the fact that it's when CAFTA began
KOLBE: Well, that's when NAFTA began, yes. That's what I'm saying: Since NAFTA passed, we've created 21 million new jobs.
DOBBS: Right. And as you look at what is happening to jobs in this country, right now, in terms of job creation and the quality, we certainly wouldn't want to -- whether you disagree or not, we wouldn't want to see those jobs eroded through outsourcing to CAFTA. I think you would agree.
Congressman Brown, let me ask you this. The U.S. trade representative Rob Hortman says that a -- this CAFTA vote, a no vote on CAFTA, in point of fact, will have a significant impact and hurt the United States in other trade negotiations. How do you respond?
BROWN: Well, you respond that our trade policy is not working. You point out, Lou, that our trade deficit worldwide went from $38 billion to the first year I was elected to Congress in '92 to $618 billion last year. We've lost 3 million manufacturing jobs in the last five or so years.
The whole point is, it's an outsourcing agreement. Guatemala and Nicaragua, the average wage is less than $3,000 a year. They -- we're not going to sell products to them. They can't buy cars made in Ohio or software from Seattle or prime beef from Nebraska, or textiles and apparel from North Carolina. But they are places where American companies will move -- will lose American jobs, and exploit workers in Guatemala. That these trade agreements aren't working for Americans or for the countries who are our trading partners.
DOBBS: Congressmen, we are out of time. But I do want -- our crack staff here has -- I do want to correct the record on something. Congressman Brown, you said twist Republican arms until they break in a thousand places. The actual quote -- and Congressman Kolbe, I want you to check this for us -- the "Washington Trade Daily" reporting you as saying, quote, "twist some Republican arms until they break in a thousand pieces."
KOLBE: I was saying that that -- the leadership is going to be doing a lot of arm twisting, and they are. This is true of any close vote like this.
BROWN: But never like this.
DOBBS: Especially in the dark of night, when I'm told that all Americans should fear our Congress in session.
KOLBE: Stay up and stay tuned. It will be a dramatic vote.
DOBBS: Oh, we will be up, believe me.
KOLBE: OK.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, gentlemen.
KOLBE: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you.
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